McCoy and Bob

[Bad Alias]

Didn't Eb write a beginner book on evocation magic that all the little wizards read as part of their apprenticeship?  At least in normal times?  "McCoy style" isn't that big of a deal to notice if he's had a hand in teaching a bunch of wizards.

Yes, buy Yuillegan's question isn't about inconsequential reasons why Evil Bob would know about it. The question is why would Jim put that in there. Probably not because Evil Bob looked it up in a book.

[Second Aristh]

Yes, buy Yuillegan's question isn't about inconsequential reasons why Evil Bob would know about it. The question is why would Jim put that in there. Probably not because Evil Bob looked it up in a book.

I mean, the simplest reason is Evil Bob was giving an assessment of the magical work on the staff.  It doesn't scream any non-inconsequential reasons to me.  McCoy's style of evocation magic is well-known.

[Bad Alias]

That makes it a throwaway line. "Everybody knows this" doesn't add anything to the story.

[Second Aristh]

It's just a nice easter egg for the readers, yeah.  Nothing especially noteworthy with respect to Harry.

[Yuillegan]

Second Aristh - Bad Alias gets it. There's a million possible reasons. But very few probable ones. There is always a reason that the author does something, and it's never just something that throwaway. Especially a good author like Jim.

Eb did write a book on the fundamentals of moving energy around. Harry claims that all wizards read it, but that is likely a poor assumption. Look at the logic. It would only apply to Wizards of Luccio's generation of wizards at the oldest (depending on when Eb wrote the book). But most wizards probably learned from much older texts that weren't written by a relatively new wizard. In the supernatural world things are measured in centuries and millennia, by those standards Eb's book is a recent addition. The modal age of Wizards was likely higher than Harry's at the time he made that comment, whilst more magical talents are born than ever, they also didn't die out as much as regular humans due to their extended lifespan and propensity to be shut ins. McCoy is more well known as a brawler and assassin than as a teacher. That's very clear from how everyone reacts to him. Evil Bob also wasn't commenting on McCoy's "style of evocation magic" as you put it. If you read the passage carefully you will not he was very specifically referring to the staff that Harry made. He was noting that the staff was in the style of McCoy.

So whilst your reason is possible, it isn't probable because it fails to address why Jim bothered to write the line.

[Second Aristh]

The staff is an implement of evocation magic... in McCoy's style.  It's not that deep.  Eb has been around long enough to be older than almost the whole living Council.  Plenty of time for a beginner's book to be distributed. 

Jim gave an easter egg for readers who remembered the name McCoy.  He does that kind of thing often.

[Yuillegan]

Bad Alias
1. I think we are in agreement (to a point) then. If it isn't a misdirect, the line then should be taken as a hint.
2. I agree with you there. Some of that work was done in this book, some questions answered and reasons alluded to why Harry doesn't follow some of these mysteries and clues (which one thinks as a detective would be like an itch he can't scratch). More in-text explanations of why Harry isn't scratching these itches would be good, as you say. But it was good that Harry found out some information (clearly not all, that was hinted at strongly) about the starborn thing and about the Cycle. The explanation Jim seems to allude to (at least in my opinion) is that Harry is otherwise too caught up in the moment to follow these things up, but doesn't just miss them or forget them altogether.

Humans are probably the most malleable creatures in the DF. I'd say it's that they don't understand (some) human motivations. It's kind of like Harry says about demons in GP. The demons understand lust, greed, anger, etc. They don't understand "good" emotions, so they don't know how to appeal to our "better angels."

Yes, I phrased my position rather poorly. Angels also seem to have trouble understanding human choices as well, though. I think it is because mortals can Choose, and because the others (by and large), cannot. Which makes mortals contradictory, because on the one hand they can be what they Choose to be but on the other hand what they Choose to be shapes them in to being who they are. What I was trying to get at (and failed to adequately articulate...and perhaps still am) is that it's the contradiction that confuses the supernatural types. It goes way back to what He Who Walks Behind Said when he and Harry first met (that we know of).

Yeah it wouldn't surprise me if Bob was even older than he himself thought. But it's clear he isn't that old either; the really old beings are also really knowledgeable and strong (and Bob isn't particularly strong or knowledgeable by comparison).

1. Only if the Council were aware of his meddling. He might have maintained a perfectly agreeable facade in public in order not to arouse suspicion. He might have been on rather good terms with the Council until he revealed himself (whenever that was).
2. I forget where but it seems that I can't find it right now. Although the timeline suggests it's less...
3. I agree. But whether she witnessed the acts or merely heard about them is another thing. I guess it's open to interpretation but it hardly felt like she crossed him.
4. Well, there's always that. But once you get into those murky waters I think it's pretty hard to define what "happened" at all. I think that would tend to hint that McCoy interfered with the spirit which makes my theory more likely.


Second Aristh If anything, the blasting rod or wand is more for evocation. Harry often describes it more like a multi-tool to serve multiple purposes. Yeah...but he didn't write it when he was born or a novice either. It's not like he would have even written a book until he was at least somewhat of an expert, which would take a while. Per WOJ, while he was young he was running around being more violent that Harry! I doubt he was sitting around writing books too. By the time he would have got around to writing the book, he would have been quite a bit older than Harry. Considered a master, if you like. Otherwise why would any of them read it? They would have more than enough information from literally thousands of years of experimentation and gathering of knowledge. So it's shrinks the amount of time considerably when he could have written it, by which time most of the Council at the point Harry makes the comment would have passed their beginner phase.

If you really believe it's a throwaway line, up to you. But so far you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary and this thread is for speculation. Read the books how you like, but some of us enjoy putting the puzzle together and finding the clues.

[Second Aristh]

Second Aristh If anything, the blasting rod or wand is more for evocation. Harry often describes it more like a multi-tool to serve multiple purposes. Yeah...but he didn't write it when he was born or a novice either. It's not like he would have even written a book until he was at least somewhat of an expert, which would take a while. Per WOJ, while he was young he was running around being more violent that Harry! I doubt he was sitting around writing books too. By the time he would have got around to writing the book, he would have been quite a bit older than Harry. Considered a master, if you like. Otherwise why would any of them read it? They would have more than enough information from literally thousands of years of experimentation and gathering of knowledge. So it's shrinks the amount of time considerably when he could have written it, by which time most of the Council at the point Harry makes the comment would have passed their beginner phase.

If you really believe it's a throwaway line, up to you. But so far you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary and this thread is for speculation. Read the books how you like, but some of us enjoy putting the puzzle together and finding the clues.

Multiple evocation purposes, yes.  A blasting rod is also an evocation tool, but for a more specialized category of spells.  It's pretty standard procedure to seek advice on teaching evocation magic from the WC's best evocation wizard.  Probably even pick up a copy of his book from Edinburgh for your new apprentice.  A century is plenty of time for information to travel.  We already saw some of Eb's writing with his full sets of journals.  It's easy enough to take some time to write down some of your philosophies and thoughts on magic that you'd share with other wizards.

A magic encyclopedia is gonna inject fight conversations with trivia.  Ivy did the same thing in SmF at the Shedd.  It doesn't necessarily make the trivia a secret clue; maybe you just understand a bit more about the subject character from a slightly different perspective.


Also, Bob is a thousand year old being by WoJ, Bad Alias.

[Bad Alias]

@Yuillegan: I don't necessarily agree with your point about why Jim wrote the line. I just understand what you're saying. I find it pretty convincing, but Second Aristh's guess that it could just be an easter egg is a pretty good reason for the line. It could also have been to signal that Harry is a creature of his background. That he hasn't developed his own flavor yet. I was listening to Bob Saget on Joe Rogan's podcast on a long drive Wednesday. They were talking about how comedians and musicians all start out basically trying to be someone they respect. Good ones end up developing their own style. Jim is probably familiar with this sort of thing as a creative type himself. That's one reason the line could be in there. I like your explanation better because it would be far more interesting to see that teased out. Of course, there doesn't have to a reason; there could be multiple.

I'd bet good money that Kemmler's Bob read McCoy's book. McCoy was head of, or former head of, the Wardens. If he had written the book while Bob was in Kemmler's possession, it would have been foolish for him to not read it. It would give insight into McCoy and all the younger wizards who were taught using the book.

Also, Bob is a thousand year old being by WoJ, Bad Alias.

There are contradicting WoJ about when and where Bob came from. I find that frustrating. Jim has suggested that Bob came from Etienne the Enchanter in much the same way Bonnie came from Harry. Etienne picked up the skull in medieval France. Bob says he has about 600 years of memory to sort through. He said he Evil Bob has 100 years worth of knowledge, but the timeline shows him with Kemmler for only 40 years or so.

[Second Aristh]

There are contradicting WoJ about when and where Bob came from. I find that frustrating. Jim has suggested that Bob came from Etienne the Enchanter in much the same way Bonnie came from Harry. Etienne picked up the skull in medieval France. Bob says he has about 600 years of memory to sort through. He said he Evil Bob has 100 years worth of knowledge, but the timeline shows him with Kemmler for only 40 years or so.

Bob's skull was made by Etienne the Enchanter in medieval France, but that's not the same thing as Bob.  I don't think its contradictory, just tricky to parse.

[Bad Alias]

Bob's skull was made by Etienne the Enchanter in medieval France, but that's not the same thing as Bob.  I don't think its contradictory, just tricky to parse.

When I said "Jim has suggested that Bob came from Etienne the Enchanter in much the same way Bonnie came from Harry" I wasn't talking about the skull. I was talking about Bob. Jim has said Etienne enchanted the skull too. Different statements.

[TheCuriousFan]

Really weird thing that Evil Bob says.

When Harry is in Ghost Story, he is wrestling with Evil Bob and Harry has a staff. Evil Bob says of it "A simple tool, but serviceable. In McCoy's style"

When has Bob, or Evil Bob ever met McCoy? And which McCoy? Eb or Margaret?

I can't get it out of my head. It says some pretty bad stuff to me.

In addition to being prominent in the fight against Kemmler he's also publishing reasonably common books about magic as shown in Dead Beat. His style is no secret. I'm on team easter egg for this one.

[Hagbard Celine]

One other thing, did Evil Bob still have all of the knowledge and experience that regular Bob had?  I think he did have those "memories" so he would have seen Harry making...how many staves over the years?  Harry makes them as McCoy taught him.  It seems likely that he would thoroughly know McCoy's style.

[TheCuriousFan]

One other thing, did Evil Bob still have all of the knowledge and experience that regular Bob had?  I think he did have those "memories" so he would have seen Harry making...how many staves over the years?  Harry makes them as McCoy taught him.  It seems likely that he would thoroughly know McCoy's style.

No, he's specifically a split off of Bob's days with Kemmler.