Author Topic: Souls and Ghosts.  (Read 33064 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #135 on: May 21, 2020, 08:29:35 AM »
There is a bit for me to unpack, but I will do my best.

BA - Quite right, it isn't established that Ghosts are a byproduct of the soul. At least, not stated explicitly. But it is stated that ghosts are the footprint and the water that fills it (on the hypothetical beach), not the foot. So I think that Jim has at least inferred it. What isn't clear is whether souless beings can have "ghosts" like mortals. I don't believe so based on the fact the mortals are a soul, but have a body. We haven't yet seen the ghost of an immortal, although it is theorized a Demon could leave a ghost. Perhaps the Dinosaurs did have souls. Who knows? I would say when it comes to animals though, it is merely the magical part of the being that all physical beings seem to have. I have yet to see a being in the Dresden Files that has no "shadow" in the spiritual world (that is to say, entirely untouched by magic).

As for the "Death of the Author"...it was a literary essay, and one that didn't escape critiscm. Whilst it is perhaps used as a lens it isn't an objective truth. It might contain elements of truth, but that isn't the same thing. You can use it if you wish, I won't stop you. But as far as I am concerned if we are discussing theory we all have to share a basic set of rules. If we all just get to decide which rules apply and which don't because we are all special snowflakes it rather defeats the purpose of these discussions. How can any argument be presented if we can't even agree on what the facts are? How can we develop a strong theory, too? Alternative facts, are in my opinion, a lazy mind's excuse for not using critical thinking. Why even read the books if you don't accept what is in them? Might as well write your own and make another forum to go with it.

Morris - I should hope not, I rather enjoy our chats. As I do with just about everyone on here. You are of course, correct. Subtext, intention, inference and implication are the stuff that get people going. It would make for a dull series without it. And how our experiences as people meld with the story is what allow us to connect with it, hence the payoff. I would never argue to get rid of that. And I agree, we do have to agree on a shared reality. But we aren't agreeing, this whole forum often doesn't. And nor should it. But in order to have a coherent discussion that isn't derailed all the time, we have to agree on basic tenets. One of which is that if it is written in the novels, or said in a WOJ etc, that's the gospel. If it is disagreed with, or thought to be false, appropriate evidence must be applied to support that position. We cannot simply argue that for example, "Harry is actually a god in Storm Front because I believe it to be so, and that works for me". Obviously, that assertion is ridiculous and has no text or statement outside the series to support it. So I would have to gather evidence to support the argument - subtext, inference, literary devices, examples etc. Without the evidence to debate there is nothing for anyone to work with. We could flood the forums with crack theories with absolutely no basis in reality for the sole purpose of our own peverse pleasure. The boards are a community, a shared space, and so should be treated with the respect that deserves. No one here stands above the rest (although Griffyn does run the place) but even his theories don't carry more weight because of that. Not having a go at you in particular either. Just giving my two bob.

Jim doesn't have to provide all the markers. We can deduce much ourselves. And he may have further reveals that he is saving up. Whilst I agree on much of the soul/spirit thing being interchangeable...there are some inconsitencies. And yes, there are differences. Were the Sir Stuart we met merely a ghost or spectre, he is but the shadow of the real deal. The real Sir Stuart is in the Here After and both are experiencing reality differently. If this were a sci-fi novel, and you replace ghost with "clone", let's say the clone has all the memories of the original being but once it is created does it's own thing, has it's own experiences. It stops being the first being just by having different experiences. It becomes something else. However, if Sir Stuart is actually more than a mere ghost - he is also a soul that is called Sir Stuart AND his ghost self then he isn't so different from Harry. Depends which theory you believe.

The Archive doesn't manifest, it has a vessel. No more than a computer program has relevance or manifests outside the paradigm of cyber. As for the others...Bob and Evil Bob have yet to create physical bodies, they have so far either possessed physical beings or interacted on different level of reality. Bonnie is something different again but I won't get into that now.

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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #136 on: May 21, 2020, 08:34:01 AM »
Arjan, couldn't agree more.

G33k, I agree.

Morris, I get what you're saying. But Harry is an unreliable narrator at the best of times. So be careful with that. Which is tiring but that's all we have to work with most of the time.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #137 on: May 21, 2020, 09:12:07 AM »
Arjan, couldn't agree more.

G33k, I agree.

Morris, I get what you're saying. But Harry is an unreliable narrator at the best of times. So be careful with that. Which is tiring but that's all we have to work with most of the time.
They are all unreliable narrators so understanding their point of view is essential to understanding what they are saying. I would not expect Lea and Mab to talk about souls the way Uriel does for example, they have a complete different understanding of the same reality. They use even different words.

Gard has a completely different view on free will and fate. I do not think it is necessarily wrong, it is a different point of view.

But Jim has a bigger world in his mind than he explicitly explains in his writing by all those unreliable narrators. Sometimes facts he shows are more reliable than the statements of all those narrators anyway.


 

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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #138 on: May 21, 2020, 12:35:14 PM »
@Yuillegan
Although it will probably never arise as a problem, in the future I will write my posts about ghosts using soul and then use search and replace to change all those instances to spirit before I actually post.  I can then serve my inner reader and my obligations to other posters with almost zero effort. ;)
Quote
We could flood the forums with crack theories with absolutely no basis in reality for the sole purpose of our own peverse pleasure.
Don't take this the wrong way, but don't we do just that?  Jim for instance says Justin is ded dead.  The internet seems to believe that Jim lies.  So Justin is alive and living as Cowl.  Or Simon didn't die and he didn't really throw his death curse at archangel.  And He's Cowl.  The point being, people seem to think that Jim himself is an unreliable narrator.  Which is sloppy technique. Or maybe brilliant, depending on what you think about it.

Offline Mira

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #139 on: May 21, 2020, 01:05:34 PM »
Quote
It's important because it's the the central conceit of Ghost Story, is he or isn't he dead?  Jim appears to be very flexible about ghosthood.  In Grave Peril Harry dies so he can come back as a ghost and then get revived to save the day.  He has Harry and Harry's ghost attack Kravos at the same time. All while in a dream no less.

  I think the difference is in Grave Peril,  Harry's heart is stopped, so technically he is dead, does what he has to do as a ghost and then his heart is restarted.  Time frame is important, I'd have to go back but I think this took place over a couple of minutes time, longer and there is brain damage etc.

In Ghost Story, while he was in a deep coma, blood circulated by Bonnie, Alfred and the lsland nourishing him through an i.v. and Mab keeping things going instantly in ice cold water when he hit
it, Harry never was dead..   In fact it is implied at the very end of Ghost Story that Mab would have
revived him there and then, but Uriel had other plans, wanting to teach Harry a lesson.
page 474 Ghost Story  Mab tells him he fell into "cold and darkness, that is my domain."

Quote
"And now here you are."  Mab murmured.  "Oh the Quiet One angered us, sending your essence out unprotected.  Had he been incorrect, I would have been robbed of my knight, and the old monster his costodian."



  His soul was sent on it's walk about, vulnerable  because Harry wasn't dead.  If he were dead and a ghost, different rules would apply.   My question is did Uriel lie to Harry at the end of Ghost Story?  At the end just before he regained conscience Uriel said it was Harry's choice, yet when he chose to move on, he merely woke up from his coma.. So evidently he didn't have a choice.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 05:13:37 PM by Mira »

Offline Avernite

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #140 on: May 21, 2020, 05:24:36 PM »
On the subject of shades versus spirits versus ghosts, I recommend rereading the conversations between Harry/Morty/Stuart up to Stuart's gun being handed to Harry. To me it seems like they (especially Stuart and Morty) are basically using the terms interchangeably.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Souls and Ghosts.
« Reply #141 on: May 21, 2020, 07:30:54 PM »
In the case of souls and spirits it makes absolutely no difference in how you parse them.  They are interchangeable in effect, if not in fact. They are different only because Jim says they are, even though, when he writes, there are no markers that would let you analyze what each is. So for instance, if Harry is a soul wandering in the world without a body, is there any difference between him and Sir Stuart as a pure spirit?  You might also ask if Harry's spirit is wandering and not his soul, where is his soul, and what's it doing while his spirit is out on the town?  And in terms of spirits he has created at least four who can manifest, the Archive, Bob, Bonea, and evil Bob. Not to mention Lash who is a !!!Shadow!!!.
We need a Venn Diagram to really illustrate this. My take is that all ghosts are spirits, not all spirits are ghosts, shades and ghosts are just two words that have the exact same meaning, and souls have many of the properties of spirits, but are somehow different in a few particular ways. I'm not sure where to put them on the diagram.

Harry did a lot of things a ghost wasn't supposed to be able to do. He possessed Mort and Molly without permission. Ghosts can't do that. (Except the Nightmare did to what'shername with Cassandra's Tears).

BA - Quite right, it isn't established that Ghosts are a byproduct of the soul. At least, not stated explicitly. But it is stated that ghosts are the footprint and the water that fills it (on the hypothetical beach), not the foot. So I think that Jim has at least inferred it. What isn't clear is whether souless beings can have "ghosts" like mortals. I don't believe so based on the fact the mortals are a soul, but have a body. We haven't yet seen the ghost of an immortal, although it is theorized a Demon could leave a ghost. Perhaps the Dinosaurs did have souls. Who knows? I would say when it comes to animals though, it is merely the magical part of the being that all physical beings seem to have. I have yet to see a being in the Dresden Files that has no "shadow" in the spiritual world (that is to say, entirely untouched by magic).

As for the "Death of the Author"...it was a literary essay, and one that didn't escape critiscm. Whilst it is perhaps used as a lens it isn't an objective truth. It might contain elements of truth, but that isn't the same thing. You can use it if you wish, I won't stop you. But as far as I am concerned if we are discussing theory we all have to share a basic set of rules. If we all just get to decide which rules apply and which don't because we are all special snowflakes it rather defeats the purpose of these discussions. How can any argument be presented if we can't even agree on what the facts are? How can we develop a strong theory, too? Alternative facts, are in my opinion, a lazy mind's excuse for not using critical thinking. Why even read the books if you don't accept what is in them? Might as well write your own and make another forum to go with it.
I simply acknowledge that the "dead author" framework is an existing framework. I don't subscribe to it (especially when the author's not done writing books), but I don't demand everyone reject it either. I'd also note it is very much not rejecting or not accepting what's in the books. It's explicitly rejecting what's not in the books. As to shared facts, I'm not so sure we as a community share facts, even the ever so obvious facts from agreed sources,  :-[.

[A basic tenet that we have to agree on] is that if it is written in the novels, or said in a WOJ etc, that's the gospel.
I disagree. I think it's fine to say that WoJ isn't gospel. I think it's fine for everyone to ascribe different levels of authority however they like to different sources. For example, I find evidence from the earlier books, especially the first three, less persuasive than most other sources, I don't put too much faith in anything from the comic books, I put a bit more faith in the Paranet Papers, I value (as canon) the short stories basically the same as I do the books, and I find WoJ to be mostly reliable. And none of that is taking the reliableness of the narrator into question. Taking the reliavleness of the narrator into question, I think the closest thing to gospel we have is whatever angels have said in the books, premised on angels being unable to lie without falling and having intellectus. I'm positive others disagree and some don't even understand why I value things as I do.