ErlKing question/ PG

[kbrizzle]

In Changes, the Erlking tells the newly Winter Knighted Harry that he almost got him at Arctis Tor (events of PG reference I presume). My question is, why was the ErlKing at Arctis Tor there at all?

He is the consort of the Summer Queen, & Harry’s actions should’ve only summoned the Winter Fae at the Summer borders, so why is the ErlKing at Arctis Tor? I understand that Harry is on his shit list, but surely this isn’t an example of him generally being on the lookout for Harry.

[g33k]

... He is the consort of the Summer Queen, & Harry’s actions should’ve only summoned the Winter Fae at the Summer borders, so why is the ErlKing at Arctis Tor? ...

It's more correct to say that Erl is the "Summer-ISH King" or "A Summer King."

It isn't nearly as clear-cut a thing as with the Ladies/Queens/Mothers of Summer & Winter.

He is the (default) Lord of the Hunt.  And Winter called a Hunt.

It's not so much that he "had to" answer... but why WOULDN'T he answer??!?  That's his thing, the Hunt!

[Bad Alias]

The Erl King and Kringle are wild fae who "play nice" with the Courts to keep life simple.

[Yuillegan]

Very much agree with both g33k and Bad Alias here.

The reasons there is confusion on this topic is there are WOJ's that say that the Erlking is a Summer King, other later WOJ's say he is a King of the Wyld Fae, and that it doesn't matter as that there is a reason Mab rules the worst of the worst and not the Erlking, despite him previously calling them 'peers'.

Early WOJs say his origins are on the Summer side, but I think it it more complicated than that. Kringle's origins are likely as not Summer in nature, yet he is thought of as the 'Winter King'. It is more about which side the Wyld Fae choose during conflicts between the major Fae powers (i.e. Summer and Winter), just like mercenary lords in a war between two Monarchs.

And remember, the Erlking wasn't always merely the Erlking. Just like Kringle that is more likely just one of his masks. Another was hinted at during his first appearance in Cold Days when Eldest Gruff referred to him as "Lord Herne" as in Herne the Hunter from Celtic mythology. These are gods wearing mantles in order to preserve their active power in the world, immortals find change so very difficult. The Queens of Faerie have long been guessed at as being someone (or a group of someones) other than their "normal" mask/mantle.

[kbrizzle]

I get that Erlking is a wild/Summer Fae, my question is about why he was there at Arctis Tor trying to get Harry? Surely assaulting the Winter Wellspring doesn’t summon wild Fae - it should only summon the Winter soldiers spread out on Winter territory.

I imagine the summons from the Wellspring is atavistic in nature - something primal felt by all beings of Winter.

@g33k
When does Winter call a hunt?

[Yuillegan]

Well I think there are two likely answers I think to this problem, but it would be interesting to hear Jim's opinion one day on it.

The first reason I think is that the Erlking might already have been within the borders of Winter at that point in time, or perhaps the moment Harry crossed into Faerie he was alerted to him (similar to how Lea would always know previously when Harry was in Faerie and show up - they are peers of a sort).

The second reason might be that attacking the Winter Wellspring touched something that affects all of Faerie in a way that goes deeper than the arbitrary boundaries of Summer and Winter. Perhaps all Fae are aware of such big things that happen to a certain degree. There is some precedent to this - whilst Mother Winter and Summer are opposites, all Fae answer to them beyond the allegiances they owe to the reigning monarchs. Jim has compared it to obeying gravity. I suspect that even one of the Mothers could wipe out the ALL other Fae all by themselves (not that they would) with very little effort. But they need the rest of the Fae to do the things that their constraints prevent them from doing - i.e. mostly interacting with the mortal world, amongst other things.

Of course, there is another reason. There is an old WAG that the Erlking is actually nemfected. This could mean he is able to do things outside of his normal purview. And perhaps the alert came from Maeve. But personally I think this is the least likely.

[Snark Knight]

Of course, there is another reason. There is an old WAG that the Erlking is actually nemfected. This could mean he is able to do things outside of his normal purview. And perhaps the alert came from Maeve. But personally I think this is the least likely.

Was that WAG prior to CD? Because if the Erlking was Nemfected, he could have delivered the Outsiders their win right there.

[Yuillegan]

Not sure when the WAG first appeared, and I did consider that, but not every agent reveals themselves immediately. Take Martin for instance. Or Goodman Grey. I am sure Nemesis can work out even the basics of the art of deception.

[Arjan]

Not sure when the WAG first appeared, and I did consider that, but not every agent reveals themselves immediately. Take Martin for instance. Or Goodman Grey. I am sure Nemesis can work out even the basics of the art of deception.

That is explicitly stated by nemesis possesing Cat Sith, a hidden asset is worth more than a revealed one but if the benefit is big enough the asset is sacrificed. If a suspect could have done something really major for the outsider cause, something more important than keeping the infection hidden, then an infection is unlikely.

[Con]

I mean it also depends on the power and structure of Fae in general. Kringle must kiss the ring, but Vadderung can tell her to get in line. Games of protocol are how they show respect. Erlking, Kringle and Eldest Gruff had to show face at Harry's first birthday as Winter Knight an official court event. In contrast in changes Erlking warns Harry not to summon Mab to his hall where he holds domain.

WOJ touches upon it.

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Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.

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  The kings are sort of the opposite of the queens in their given season.  They are independent of their Queen’s courts.  The Erlking is a summer king and he is not a particularly friendly guy, whereas Santa Clause, one of the winter kings, is kinder, the spirit of generosity in a time of bleakness.  Yah I’ve gota have Harry ask Mab about him so she can roll her eyes.

Erlking is also in Mab's class.

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The Erlking (who isn't Cern) is a being of Faerie who is in Mab's weight division, if not her equal.

Erlking is also specifically stated as independent of Mab and both courts.

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There is no such thing as a Summer King in the Dresden Files faerie cosmology. Mab and Titania need a King like a fish needs a bicycle.
There are a ton of independent rulers of the Wyld, though, much like the Erlking, who is a member of the Winter Court more or less as a sign of courtesy and respect. They will occasionally make alliances (and dalliances) with the great rulers of the Sidhe.

WOJ is that the Erlking could theoretically create his own Knight albeit less powerful the Summer or Winter Knight

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longshotauthor is it possible for the Erlking to create a Wyld Knight or some equivalent?
@SuperSnapper61 Engh. He could feasibly take a part of his own power and fashion a new mantle from it.  Much weaker than the WK though.
@den_down_unda @jim_turnage The Erlking is simply not on the same scale of power as Mab, though he could probably hand Molly her head.

Plus WOJ several time has said that Harry tends to judge things about who would win in an outright fight, but it's suggested or stated that beings of power play on several levels not just fights.

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  Your question presupposes a linear hierarchy--which isn't surprising, since the series has come from Harry's viewpoint, and Harry is a straight-lines kind of thinker. Power is a much more nebulous thing than that, and something that is problematic to quantify...

[Yuillegan]

Thank you Arjan, that is an excellent example of what I mean.

I mean I think on balance of probabilities, the Erlking is likely not nemfected. But it was an interesting theory. Would be a major sucked punch.

Con - Right on the money. Kings of Faerie is less of a formal position, and Faerie is a complicated place.

Kbrizzle - The Erlking isn't the consort of Titania btw.

[g33k]

...  I mean I think on balance of probabilities, the Erlking is likely not nemfected. But it was an interesting theory. Would be a major sucked punch ...

Given how little we know of the way(s) Nemfection happens (the Athame of Crazy us out of circulation, but Nemfection is still happening), maybe the Erlking could have gotten it underwater at the big battle at the end of Cold Days.

Certainly, the Gatekeeper closely examined battle-survivora at the Outer Gates, which STRONGLY suggests heat-of-battle provides some sort of vector, or covert opportunity, or SOMETHING in Nemesis' favor...

[Con]

I presume its through cuts and gashes, like any other infection. The fact that its passed through a dagger is a good hint.

[Arjan]

The dagger could contain it because it is an object of power. It is a spiritual infection in the same category as demonic possession, denarian shadow or even the intrusion of a mind mage. It can enter when something other pushes it in or the victim draws it in. I think Lea got infected when she used the power of the dagger but Cat Sith got infected very quickly I think the walker just pushed it in brute force.