Lawbreaking and Sponsored Magic

[Lavecki121]

I feel it would come up in the story quite a few times anyway, posibly gaining an aspect relating to it.

[Haru]

I suspect he meant gaining the positive side of Lawbreaker; gaining a +1 or +2 to spellcasting when breaking the law again. 

It makes sense from a story point of view - you've paid for the ability through permanent debt.  However, I'd be wary of  using this as a way to bypass refresh limits.

Well, you can always get more sponsor debt, if you want to increase your spells, so the bonus from lawbreaker isn't really necessary. And I would not give the bonus without the power, that's what it's there for (among other things).

You might also want to consider, that some sponsors might actually require a lawbreaker, especially the darker ones. Or maybe not so much require, but a sponsor will be drawn to people close to himself, so a murderous and violent sponsor will look for people prone to murder and violence. A mental magic sponsor will look for people that like playing mindgames with people. It will be a very very rare case, where a normal, decent guy will get sponsored magic like that and use it, without being twisted around. Not necessarily in a magical way, but inflicting pain and suffering on people will leave its mark, even if it is just plain old guilt. This conflict should definitely be reflected in a character like that. And if you are in sync with your sponsor, and it is a "bad" sponsor, why not take the lawbreaker anyway, since it seems you want to play exactly that sort of character.

[Taran]

You might also want to consider, that some sponsors might actually require a lawbreaker, especially the darker ones. Or maybe not so much require, but a sponsor will be drawn to people close to himself, so a murderous and violent sponsor will look for people prone to murder and violence. A mental magic sponsor will look for people that like playing mindgames with people. It will be a very very rare case, where a normal, decent guy will get sponsored magic like that and use it, without being twisted around. Not necessarily in a magical way, but inflicting pain and suffering on people will leave its mark, even if it is just plain old guilt. This conflict should definitely be reflected in a character like that. And if you are in sync with your sponsor, and it is a "bad" sponsor, why not take the lawbreaker anyway, since it seems you want to play exactly that sort of character.

Which is why a benevolent sponsor wouldn't really jive with a Lawbreaker and why I don't think a benevolent sponsor would take the hit for Lawbreaking.  You'd be heavily compelled not to break the law but when you get your Lawbreaker Power you'd probably have a harder time using your sponsored magic...and I'd definitely say that you wouldn't get the bonus from Lawbreaker when using that sponsored magic.

[Haru]

Which is why a benevolent sponsor wouldn't really jive with a Lawbreaker and why I don't think a benevolent sponsor would take the hit for Lawbreaking.  You'd be heavily compelled not to break the law but when you get your Lawbreaker Power you'd probably have a harder time using your sponsored magic...and I'd definitely say that you wouldn't get the bonus from Lawbreaker when using that sponsored magic.

Right, I hadn't even thought that far. Think about a lawbreaker first with soulfire. That would be really hard to justify with the power, let alone having the sponsor take that fall.

[Deadmanwalking]

Soulfire isn't actually under anyone's control, so that one could in fact work. I agree more generally, though. Truly benevolent entities are gonna be less than pleased with this. Of course, some 'benevolent' deities might consider it fine...I have a hard time thinking of, say, Artemis having a problem with Breaking the 1st or 2nd Laws given her nature as a hunter and the whole thing with the hunter who saw her naked...

[UmbraLux]

You can't even use the power much less take debt unless your action meets the sponsor's agenda. 

Well, you can always get more sponsor debt, if you want to increase your spells, so the bonus from lawbreaker isn't really necessary.

It's not the debt, it's the free compels you're taking by making it permanent.  /D's advocate.

[Deadmanwalking]

I suspect he meant gaining the positive side of Lawbreaker; gaining a +1 or +2 to spellcasting when breaking the law again. 

It makes sense from a story point of view - you've paid for the ability through permanent debt.  However, I'd be wary of  using this as a way to bypass refresh limits.

I suppose something like that's probably fair. You're never getting out of debt, though.

[GryMor]

I could see a few "Benevolent" Sponsors that allowed (or required in the case of "preexisting" loops) the creation (maintenance?) of specific stable predestination loops, in violation of the 6th law. If it's of the "This has already happened and you !!MUST!! keep the loop stable!", commandment sort, then it's possible the sponsor might shield you from the normal spiritual consequences so long as you stick to the script. Probably doesn't protect you from the Wardens though.

[blackstaff67]

The concept was something from something called the Oathbound series by M. Lackey; basically a warrior-mage following a deity's agenda of protecting all women.  Toyed with mebbe allowing it for defending/following the agenda but only that--but letting the player discover that through trial and error.  Put simply, it's almost like a cop's right to use deadly force only to defend herself and others and that's it.  No judge/jury/executioner stuff. 

[Richard_Chilton]

I can see Need as an Item of Power.  Say two builds with wizards tapping one build (being gifted weapon skills) and the warriors tapping the other (gaining protection from magic).

But that series has very fantasy style magic - and that wizard (while White) would be breaking several laws of the DV.  Beyond the typical S&S 'killing with magic' there's that time she transformed a serial rapist into an attractive young woman, knowing that sending him/her off alone would probably result a gang rape that ended in murder.

In short, that's a very different style of play from the default DFRPG, but there are threads here about converting the game to other styles, so if that's what you want to do then that's what your group should do.

I'd suggest big time sponsor debt every time that she breaks the laws and using that debt to derail the plot - sending her away from the main plot to protect battered women, helpless children, and laying out Justice on mundanes who abuse the helpless.

Richard

[MijRai]

My suggestion, as far as whether or not Sponsored Magic causes Lawbreaker or not, is that if they are a PC, using magic to break a Law (regardless of Sponsor) will net them Lawbreaker.  Said Sponsor only affects how much guff the Council can give them.

As far as the idea of Sponsor Debt being used to prevent Lawbreaker... Personally I don't like it, but it's your call.

[blackstaff67]

I think I'm going to officially decide (unless future things prove otherwise): Mortal spell-casting equals opportunity for Lawbreaking, regardless of source.  Come to think of it, I certainly don't recall any of the Alphas as Lawbreakers (but then, I don't recall any of them actually killing any mortals--crippling/disabling, yes, but not killing).

[Deadmanwalking]

Killing people physically, even aided indirectly by magic, doesn't get you Lawbreaker. An Alpha biting someone's throat out doesn't get Lawbreaker any more than a Warden who kills them with a sword after using magic to incapacitate them somehow.

Neither directly killed with magic, after all.