Hunger Track ?s i.e. Give up powers?

[fantazero]

I'm confused on how Hunger Stress Tracks work, so i've been asking my GM about it
 So he mailed me this below
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Your character, a White Court Virgin, has:

Emotional Vampire (-1)
Incite Emotion (Lust), Touch Only (-1)
Feeding Dependency (Lust) (+1)
Inhuman Strength (-2)
Inhuman Speed (-2)

Discipline: 2, Endurance: 1, Presence: 1, Conviction: 0
(all other skills don't really matter)

Stress:
Physical ( ) ( ) ( )
Mental   ( ) ( )
Social   ( ) ( ) ( )
Hunger   ( ) ( ) ( )


EXAMPLE 1: During a scene, you use your Inhuman Strength.  At the end of the scene, you would roll Discipline against an attack of strength 2 (Inhuman Strength is a 2-refresh power).  You roll a +1, so you get to clear out your hunger stress track.

EXAMPLE 2: During the next scene, you use both Inhuman Strength and Inhuman Speed.  At the end of that scene, you roll Discipline against an attack of strength 4 (Inhuman Strength at 2 refresh, plus Inhuman Speed at 2 refresh).  You again roll a +1 - so now you have to take 1 hunger stress.  You can either take that as 1 hunger stress and lose access to 1 point worth of powers, or take a physical or mental consequence to absorb the stress.  You decide to take the stress - which means you have to lose 1 refresh worth of powers.

Here's where the question is: Since you don't have any 1-point powers to lose, do you lose access to one of your 2-refresh powers?  Or do you only lose access to one of them once you've reached 2 hunger stress?  I can see arguments for both cases: either that 1 hunger stress means she's a little hungry, but not so much so that she can't exert herself quite as well, OR that's just enough that she's having some trouble exerting herself (and loses the power).  The more I think about it, the more I think the former makes more sense (and adds more risk to the hunger track, since you keep your powers longer).

EXAMPLE 3: The next scene is a talky-talky scene, so you don't have to use any powers.  The white court virgin is chatting up some new boy she just met. She gets a bit flustered in the scene, but doesn't actually use any of her powers.  At the end of the scene, the GM compels her high concept to force a hunger check at the end of the scene.  That would be a strength 2 attack (1/2 the total cost of all her affected powers).  She rolls a -1 on her Discipline check for a total of 1 and has to either take 1 Hunger stress or a mild consequence.  Her 1-stress box is already checked from the previous scene, so that rolls the stress up to the 2-stress box.  She's already used up her mild consequence during the scene - so that would have to roll up to a Moderate if she takes the consequence to negate the stress.  Instead, she decides to check off her 2-stress box and gives up her Inhuman Strength.

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So that was very helpful, I think.
But the way I understand (and where we disagree) is
1. Give up access to a power as a way of avoiding Stress =/lesser than the Refresh of that power.
2. Give up access to a power as a way to avoid taking Consequences =/lesser than the Refresh of that Power.
3. That I can take a Stress instead of giving up Powers
4. That I can take a consequence instead of giving up Powers.

So if my GM is right, at the end of the Scene if you take a Stress or  Consequence you lose powers???

Also I had a thing about, say I only use 1 power over and over again (inhuman speed for example) because I'm in a LOOOOOOOONNNNGGGG chase scene. I'd say after a time, the GM could make me role discipline and or/compel me to DURING the scene since I am taxing myself so much.
Also would you have to get a compel (fate chip) on your high concept to roll discipline?

[Tedronai]

Example 2:
Lose access to powers with a combined refresh cost at least equal to the stress taken, in the same manner as you would spend consequences at least equal to the stress absorbed.


You do not lower powers if you absorb (all) the stress as Consequences.


Hunger attacks exceeding those at the end of a scene would almost definitely require a Compel, though not necessarily against the character's High Concept (not that the aspect compelled actually has much of an impact in terms of mechanics after that point).

[Centarion]

Feeding Dependency is, in my opinion, the worst worded of all the powers in the book. Lets look at some of what it says:

• If you cannot or do not wish to spare consequences, then you must lose access to a number of your powers, up to a refresh cost equal to the amount of stress taken.
• These options can be combined however you choose. (Referring to loosing powers and taking consequences)
• If you have no powers left to lose and are taken out by a feeding failure, you are actually taken out.

To me, it is unclear form their wording weather you loose powers whenever you take stress (ie. do not absorb all stress with consequences), or weather loosing powers act as another type of consequence. I interpret it as the second option.

In your example 2, you would just take one point of hunger stress and suffer no other ill effects (or you could choose to loose access to powers or take a consequence, but that would be silly). 

The reason I interpret it this way is because of the last bullet point. It says that in order to actually be taken out you must both have no powers left and be "taken out" (which I interpret to mean take a hit that goes past your stress track, and not absorb it with consequences).  So lets take an example, say a full WCV, with 6 refresh in inhuman powers and currently suffering no hunger penalties used all his powers. He would face a 6 shift attack, say his discipline was a 2 and he rolled 0, so he takes 4 stress, he chooses not to use any consequences. If you interpret this the first way (that he must now loose 4 refresh worth of powers) what happens? I have no idea, it appears the game breaks. So first you loose 4 refresh in powers (so 2 of his 3 inhuman powers), then what? How do you handle the 4 stress hit. He stress track has a length of 3 so we can't just mark it down, and since loosing powers is tied to how much stress you are taking they are clearly not behaving consequences, so they do not buy down the stress. So is he taken out since he has taken a hit that goes past his stress track? Well no, he is not, since he still has a power left he could loose, he cant be taken out (see bullet point 3). This interpretation produces a contradiction, so it cannot be correct.

I am aware that this does not exactly jive with what is said in bullet point 1, namely that "if you cannot or do not wish to spare consequences, then you must lose access to a number of your powers." However, directly after stating that you must loose power if you do not take consequences it states "up to a refresh cost equal to the amount of stress taken." This use of "up to" implies to me that you could loose access to power of a refresh cost of less than the amount of stress taken (since up to implies less than or equal to). The second bullet point makes me think that since you can combine loosing power and taking consequences however you choose that they should behave similarly.

So here is my interpretation: At the end of a scene where you used your powers or whenever you face a stressful situation and are compelled you face a hunger attack equal to the refresh of powers you used (or 1/2 the total cost of the affected powers) and defend with Discipline. If you win you clear your stress track, if you loose you take stress. If you cannot take this stress (the value of the hit is greater than your largest unfilled stress box) you can choose to either absorb the hit with consequences (and take any remainder as stress), or loose powers, treating them like they were consequences (So an Inhuman power would be like a mild consequence, you could also downgrade a Supernatural to an Inhuman to absorb 2 stress, or loose the whole thing to absorb 4 stress). You may not allow yourself to be taken out of you could loose powers instead (this is different from normal consequences, since you can choose to be taken out rather than take a consequence). Now the 3rd bullet point makes sense. Since if you have no powers left to loose and would still be taken you, you actually are.

Given all of this, I still think the power is poorly worded and abuse able. For example, a character with 3 discipline could use all 6 refresh of powers, eat the ~3 stress hit, then use one power next scene and clear his stress. This does limit you if you have to go all out for multiple scenes, but if you can ever afford to go easy the actual feeding part will never come up (so I would recommend to your GM to push you with multiple large conflicts in a row, or scenes where you take large stress attacks).

Finally, if you wanted to go the house rule way in order to fix these problems Sancta has a version here and I have a version here.

[Tedronai]

Yeah, I was doing my best to dance around that issue, because, last time I remember it being brought up, it became somewhat contentious.
I agree with Centarion's interpretation, though, for the most part, and would suggest taking a look at those re-writes if you're interested in something that'll be less problematic.

[Mr. Death]

So here is my interpretation: At the end of a scene where you used your powers or whenever you face a stressful situation and are compelled you face a hunger attack equal to the refresh of powers you used (or 1/2 the total cost of the affected powers) and defend with Discipline. If you win you clear your stress track, if you loose you take stress. If you cannot take this stress (the value of the hit is greater than your largest unfilled stress box) you can choose to either absorb the hit with consequences (and take any remainder as stress), or loose powers, treating them like they were consequences (So an Inhuman power would be like a mild consequence, you could also downgrade a Supernatural to an Inhuman to absorb 2 stress, or loose the whole thing to absorb 4 stress). You may not allow yourself to be taken out of you could loose powers instead (this is different from normal consequences, since you can choose to be taken out rather than take a consequence). Now the 3rd bullet point makes sense. Since if you have no powers left to loose and would still be taken you, you actually are.

Yeah, that's always how I've interpreted it. It makes the most sense, given how the power is written.

Given all of this, I still think the power is poorly worded and abuse able. For example, a character with 3 discipline could use all 6 refresh of powers, eat the ~3 stress hit, then use one power next scene and clear his stress. This does limit you if you have to go all out for multiple scenes, but if you can ever afford to go easy the actual feeding part will never come up (so I would recommend to your GM to push you with multiple large conflicts in a row, or scenes where you take large stress attacks).

Really, that's not all that different from the sit-out-a-scene option. One way to limit it would be to emphasize that it has to be a strenuous use of the power, and the GM can decide on that.