So How much Stress would a Subway Train cause?

[ARedthorn]

Any solution that gets in the way of the game isn't one... that includes flow. If you're doing PbP where you have the time to debate this- go for it... but at a table, I'd say that concession would be your go-to... it's quick, easy, and if anyone doesn't like it, it's negotiable.

[sinker]

But you're still dictating a specific outcome. What you could do is invoke for effect to have a train roll by and have it be a potential complication for the BCV. However a compel can't dictate that the BCV gets hit by the train. That's up to the BCV to decide. In this case I suppose it doesn't matter, as the person compelling, and the person making the decision are the same person (the GM), but you probably ought to be careful with that or the players wind up with an edge that you can't use against them.

[Katarn]

You can use your tag of an aspect you created to create an effect and when that effect has significant negative results on an opponent compel mechanics come in. So my players tagged the four appropriate aspect to create the effect BCV hit by train, now as a GM I could either stat said train as an environmental attack and roll it or I could consider being hit by a train to mean an concession which takes said BCV out of the fight with certain consequences which as the GM I would be inspired to compel because of the train effect.

(Writing this, assuming you use the train as a Weapons Roll).
Yes, it can cause an effect but it can't cause the decision that the BCV can't get off the tracks.  DFRPG is all about choices, so in essence even the BCV can't be robbed of that.  Removing the PHYSICAL OPTION to move is different, and those 4 aspects could be used as a bonus on the "train-weapon roll".  I don't think the tag for effect cause taking out itself- only stress (in this case physical) does that.  So I'd favor the "weapon" roll, boosted by the tagged aspects  (you could even further tag the BCV's other consequences)- the intended result by the GM (BCV destroyed or nearly destroyed) is still nearly guaranteed, as the train would have if you merely went the story route.  As the GM, you could choose whether or not the concession is taken (in the persona of the BCV).

And again, if you want the villain to survive, there's easily story elements that allow for that- ie BCV (especially older ones, don't know what kind you were using) are incredibly durable, and have Gaeous Form.

[Richard_Chilton]

I still think "Okay, it's dead" is a good call to make.  Maybe it doesn't fit the exact wording of the rules but this isn't D&D or another "rules lawyer" friendly game.  If it fits with the spirit of play AND the table is okay with then it's a good call - and who except the table would know if it fits the spirit of play for that group?

And there are similar things in the novels, where Harry had used the environment to kill an unstopable monster.

That said, I'm leery of things like this; pushing someone in front of a train is a "spit second timing" sort of thing - especially if your target is moving at faster than normal speed (like in this case).  Too late and you bounce off the train or might get pulled under.  Too soon and the target has a second or two to scramble to safety.

But there are situations where it makes sense to say "He's dead Jim" - and that goes along with the table judging the reasonableness of an outcome.

Richard

[Belial666]

OK, the BCV is dead after being hit by a train. As soon as the combat is over and stress goes away, it uses its "death is a nuisance" ability to shrug off death like the inconvenience it is, turns gaseous and reforms before the PCs unharmed. 

Seriously people, full BCVs (not total newbies) are nightmares. You need to run one over with a car over a half-dozen times merely to put them down. To permanently kill them you need to incinerate or stake them, or use holy/garlic attacks. At the same time, they are strong enough to flip said car one-handed.

[Richard_Chilton]

OK, the BCV is dead after being hit by a train. As soon as the combat is over and stress goes away, it uses its "death is a nuisance" ability to shrug off death like the inconvenience it is, turns gaseous and reforms before the PCs unharmed.

That does sound like a good outcome - reoccurring villain and the PCs realise that they should have read Dracula, not just watched a movie.

Richard

PS - bonus points for those who remember how Dracula was killed in the book.  For those of you who missed it - it's recounted in Fred Saberhagen's "The Dracula Tapes".

[Vairelome]

PS - bonus points for those who remember how Dracula was killed in the book.  For those of you who missed it - it's recounted in Fred Saberhagen's "The Dracula Tapes".

Well, according to Saberhagen, he wasn't killed.  It's been a few years since I last read that series (and much longer since I read Stoker's book), but I think the answer you're looking for is "decapitated," and I believe it was a sword or large knife.  In Saberhagen's version, Vlad makes a comment about the stupidity of Van Helsing and friends, thinking he could be seriously injured with a metal weapon.

I have to say, The Dracula Tapes was an awesome book, and the rest of the series is quite good, too.  The series had been out of print for a decade or two, I believe, but it looks like Amazon is selling the Kindle versions now.

[Richard_Chilton]

In Saberhagen's version, Vlad makes a comment about the stupidity of Van Helsing and friends, thinking he could be seriously injured with a metal weapon.

The idea was that since the bowie knife was a 'pure' metal it would effect him the way pure things did - and later Dracula commented on how idiotic that sounded even to his ears.

Then again, it was during the daylight hours so maybe...

Richard

[zenten]

There's no way the BCV is dead from that.  Taken out, yes, at the very least the BCV is far enough away now that it would take a new scene for it to show up.  The only question is how many people need to be drained of their blood for it to come back with no physical consequences.

[Tedronai]

And whether it's capable of draining that blood without assistance.  Which, if it's not, and doesn't have someone/something to provide that assistance, is as good as dead.

[Richard_Chilton]

Does it need to feed to power:
Death is a Nuisance: Unless wholly destroyed or killed by special means, you’re already dead, and that doesn’t seem to have fazed you much. No “death” result is ever permanent unless special means are used (usually as determined by your creature type).
?

Richard

[Becq]

First off, as Belial pointed out, the Living Dead can't die except via a means exploiting a specific weakness.  So the worst case scenario for the BCV is that he's taken out and -- assuming measures aren't taken to prevent it -- recovers eventually.

That said, I agree with others that the train should be treated as more or less a weapon for purposes of the mechanics.  So maybe the character uses Athletics to attack with the weapon:5 train (to time the throw properly).  If the BCV is 'taken out', then he is 'dead' ... until he gets better.  If not, then pick your resolution: perhaps he leaps back up to the platform jst before the train arrives, suffering no more than a glancing blow (or not so glancing, depending on the attack's results).  Or he leaps up at the last moment and clings to the ceiling of the tunnel, taking the glancing blow, then leaps down after the train passes.  Or similarly, he ducks down between the tracks, using his strength to avoid getting sucked into the train's undercarriage.  Or he smashes through the front windshield of the train, surprising the driver (and draining him dry to heal some damage via Blood Drinker).  Or he 'sticks' to the front of the train, letting it carry him to safety.  Etc.

I think I was running the scene, I'd probably opt to play the scene out as a concession.  The vampire gets to narrate the result, which would be the "breaking through the cab and eating the driver" option because it appeals to me.  The players make no attack roll (beyond the maneuver they used to get the vamp there in the first place) because it's a concession, but I'd mix in some environmental damage reduced by an appropriate roll (in this case, probably the Athletics limited by Might or vice versa dodge the train through its window).  This resulting damage might well be mitigated entirely by Toughness combined by a refreshing snack.  In the aftermath, of course, the runaway train might be brought to a stop in time by the passengers ... or it might result in a spectacular crash with the size effect of concealing the fate of the BCV.  Well, until a later scene in which it returns for vengeance, of course.

But your mileage might vary.