Non-spellcaster Using Enchanted Items

[EldritchFire]

How would you go about rating an enchanted item--or potion, for that matter--that was given to a PC?

Also, would it be possible to for a PC to take Refinement for the sole purpose of getting a ranged attack? I would just use Breath Weapon, but it's such a restricted power, having only a range of 1. Or would it be better to just make up a new power to make up for the lack of range for Breath Weapon?

Thanks in advance!

-EF

[EdgeOfDreams]

A potion can be drunk by anyone, no problem, but the effect strength is determined by the creator.

An enchanted item can be loaned temporarily if the creator pays for that (I don't remember if it's one shift or one slot).

If a non-caster wanted to have an enchanted item long-term, you'd probably want to have them take Ritual(Crafting) or an Item of Power, unless they have some other source of magic already.

For a ranged attack, there's always guns and throwing weapons.  The Breath Weapon power is perhaps a *little* too expensive for what it does, but your group always has the option of tweaking powers.

I'm leery of allowing people to take Refinement for item slots who are not already casters, simply because it gives anyone with a decent lore score access to some very strong effects for just 1 point of refresh.

[Becq]

While it's not 'legal' per the rules, I think it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to allow non-spellcasters to take Refinement for enchanted items.  I think I'd probably do it this way:

1) I'd probably make a limit of 1-2 Refinements worth of enchanted items/potions unless you had crafting.
2) You would need to establish a reliable source for the items.  Even non-potion enchanted items need to be constantly refreshed.  You need an aspect establishing your relationship to either a PC or NPC crafter, and if that source is not available, then your items will be unavailable (or will not recharge once used up).  If this happens, of course, it would qualify as a compel on your aspect.
3) The items would still have a strength based on your Lore.  From a balance point of view, this reduces abuse (because even spellcasters might otherwise claim that their good buddy with Lore 17 made their items for them -- "look, I even have the aspect to prove it!!1!"  For a flavor-text point of view, this reflects proper care or the items, knowing how to focus the energies of the item, etc.

Note that if a spellcaster let you use one of their items (that they paid for with Refinement) then the above would not apply; use the rules in the book for that.

[Crion]

I've been contemplating the same thing, actually, regarding non-casters (or even casters) and the acquisition of enchanted items. I'm using the DFRPG to power a steampunk/fantasy setting, and I've been trying to determine the best way to allow PCs to use the equivalent of an Enchanted Item without putting slots into it.

Personally, I've been at a tossup here. I'm thinking I could give each of them the equivalent of two enchanted item slots so they can at least carry around something "magical" as the setting permits it, especially as a reward; if they attempt to carry any more than that, the magic simply fizzles as they don't have the kind of energy to dedicate to it.

From a strictly DFRPG ruling, though: it's up to you. If you follow the RAW, the enchanted items must have the extra slot in order to be given to someone else. Remember that you can always have things go at the rate of plot: if it is fitting for the story, let it happen!

Just my two cents, do with them as you will.

--Crion

[devonapple]

I've been contemplating the same thing, actually, regarding non-casters (or even casters) and the acquisition of enchanted items. I'm using the DFRPG to power a steampunk/fantasy setting, and I've been trying to determine the best way to allow PCs to use the equivalent of an Enchanted Item without putting slots into it.

The question is: how would you determine the Power of the item? Most non-spellcasters will have little to no Lore skill. Perhaps Resources?

On the one hand, determining the power by using the Lore of whichever spellcaster they talked this magical item out of would encourage them to solicit high-level spellcasters until they got what they wanted. On the other hand, if impressing the spellcaster and/or gathering needed magical ingredients was made into an adventure, I couldn't see a problem with justifying the item be made as if the Lore was at the current campaign skill cap (Superb, for instance).

[UmbraLux]

I might consider refinements like that if one PC was making and maintaining the items for another.  If one PC consistently uses a potion made by another, it makes a certain amount of sense for the recipient to pay the refresh cost. 

That said, I don't really like the idea of some mysterious friend supplying magical items to someone who wouldn't have access otherwise.  At least not in a setting close to standard DFRPG.  If you're playing a D&D style game with magic shops...well that's reason enough to have access. 

[devonapple]

That said, I don't really like the idea of some mysterious friend supplying magical items to someone who wouldn't have access otherwise.  At least not in a setting close to standard DFRPG.  If you're playing a D&D style game with magic shops...well that's reason enough to have access. 

It's also not very appropriate for Dresden Files, just from the general setting vibe. But if a game *was* going to allow it, would the Refresh cost for the Refinement slots, and the explicit need to to go out and earn them, be sufficient?

[Crion]

The question is: how would you determine the Power of the item? Most non-spellcasters will have little to no Lore skill. Perhaps Resources?

On the one hand, determining the power by using the Lore of whichever spellcaster they talked this magical item out of would encourage them to solicit high-level spellcasters until they got what they wanted. On the other hand, if impressing the spellcaster and/or gathering needed magical ingredients was made into an adventure, I couldn't see a problem with justifying the item be made as if the Lore was at the current campaign skill cap (Superb, for instance).

I personally was going to go about it at the level of plot. If they did gather the materials to have a crafter make it for them, then yes, I'd set it at a higher level. If the upper class characters wanted to hit a local Guild-sanctioned magic shop or black market and pick up items that were created to be sold, then I'd probably set it along the lines of a 1-3 shift effect 1-3 times per game, depending on what the character was doing (I personally am not using the Resource skill as written due to the setting involved).
Some of the enchanted items of the setting are essentially extended potions (multiple uses and entirely gone) or require the user to pay the energy cost (in DFRPG terms; the mental stress of extra uses), so it does balance itself out in a way.

Again, just my view of it all, pick it apart or use it as you will ^_^

--Crion

[devonapple]

Also, would it be possible to for a PC to take Refinement for the sole purpose of getting a ranged attack? I would just use Breath Weapon, but it's such a restricted power, having only a range of 1. Or would it be better to just make up a new power to make up for the lack of range for Breath Weapon?

I wouldn't use Refinement to purchase Powers, personally. I would prefer them to be standard Enchanted Items. Ranged attack? Then get an (assuming Lore 5) Evocation Attack:4 with extra uses.

If you wanted Breath Weapon (2 refresh), you can do that legally by buying it as an Item of Power (1-point discount) which makes it cost 1 Refresh anyway, and no one need bother with deciding how Refinement can be used by non-spellcasters. That doesn't address the OP's complaints about Breath Weapon, though.

[EldritchFire]

Lots of good suggestions in this thread, thanks to all who have replied so far!

My main reason for asking is to allow a ranged magical attack for a non-spellcaster that has a range beyond thrown weapons range. Here is the character concept I want the ranged attack for:

http://efpr.es/mEEqdW

I could just rewrite Breath Weapon. The main problems with that is the range issue and the fact that it can't be upgraded. I guess I could just modify it. An additional -1 for Weapon:4, -1 to make it a zone-wide attack, -1 for +1 accuracy, etc.

Oh well, I guess everyone has something to complain about :p

-EF

[devonapple]

The Custom Powers thread has several community-vetted upgrades for Breath Weapon, including range and damage.

[UmbraLux]

I could just rewrite Breath Weapon. The main problems with that is the range issue and the fact that it can't be upgraded. I guess I could just modify it. An additional -1 for Weapon:4, -1 to make it a zone-wide attack, -1 for +1 accuracy, etc.

Another option for an easy ranged attack is Channeling (same price as Breath Weapon but far more flexible) - could easily be reskinned as throwing your "ebon blade".  It's good as is and can be flavored as a blade attack without any changes.  If your group is flexible, you could tailor it even further...say trading the ability to use Block and Counterspell actions for using Weapons in place of Discipline.

[InFerrumVeritas]

How about something like:

Magical Procurement-1
You may purchase and get access to enchanted items by knowing the right people price.  You have two enchanted item slots for this purpose.  The strength of the enchanted item is determined by your Resources or Contact skill.  You must spend a fate point to declare that you have the item.  Each item may only be used once (effectively a potion).

I'd be okay with this being a stunt.  It's a little under powered, but I'm okay with that.

[Becq]

Skimming over your concept, I wonder if even enchanted item gets you what you want, given that they are, in fact, *items*, which could be taken away.  (I really like the way you used Human Form to deal with the tattoo, by the way!)

So if you want a ranged attack in general, the best answer is going to be: a GUN.  Of course, that's not a magical attack, which you specified.

If you want a magical ranged attack that can't be taken away, you can't use an IoP or enchanted item; you need a straight power.  That means use an existing option, or create a new power.  On the existing power front, choices for ranged magical attacks include:

Breath Weapon
Channeling (or Evocation or Sponsored Magic)
Incite Emotion (plus Ranged and Lasting)

Channeling would get you what you want and then some, but carries a lot of baggage: you need to buy up Discipline and Conviction, at which point you'd be a caster, rather than what you want to be.  Incite Emotion can generate the magical attack, but is geared more toward inflicting a specific flavor of consequence.  That leaves Breath Weapon, which you aren't happy with due to the range.  So your choice there becomes using the power as is (which would work, especially since your concept is a 'thrown' weapon, and thrown weapons have the same range), or modifying the power.

If you take that last option, then I'd suggest the following: start with Breath Weapon and trade the +2 stress for an extra zone of range (ie, pistol range) for the same case, OR keep the +2 stress and add an extra zone of range for an extra -1 refresh.

[EldritchFire]

The Custom Powers thread has several community-vetted upgrades for Breath Weapon, including range and damage.

I'll have to check that out, thanks!

Skimming over your concept, I wonder if even enchanted item gets you what you want, given that they are, in fact, *items*, which could be taken away.  (I really like the way you used Human Form to deal with the tattoo, by the way!)

So if you want a ranged attack in general, the best answer is going to be: a GUN.  Of course, that's not a magical attack, which you specified.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I'm looking or a way to represent throwing the blade, so no actual "item."

If you want a magical ranged attack that can't be taken away, you can't use an IoP or enchanted item; you need a straight power.  That means use an existing option, or create a new power.  On the existing power front, choices for ranged magical attacks include:

Breath Weapon
Channeling (or Evocation or Sponsored Magic)
Incite Emotion (plus Ranged and Lasting)

Channeling would get you what you want and then some, but carries a lot of baggage: you need to buy up Discipline and Conviction, at which point you'd be a caster, rather than what you want to be.  Incite Emotion can generate the magical attack, but is geared more toward inflicting a specific flavor of consequence.  That leaves Breath Weapon, which you aren't happy with due to the range.  So your choice there becomes using the power as is (which would work, especially since your concept is a 'thrown' weapon, and thrown weapons have the same range), or modifying the power.

If you take that last option, then I'd suggest the following: start with Breath Weapon and trade the +2 stress for an extra zone of range (ie, pistol range) for the same case, OR keep the +2 stress and add an extra zone of range for an extra -1 refresh.

Channeling could work, really. I don't need to have that high casting skills, a few stunts could take care of that. However, I think I'll just opt for Breath Weapon and check out the custom powers thread.

Thanks again for the advice!

-EF