Comparative power?

[Belial666]

How do supernatural creatures and mortals with supernatural powers compare to purely mortal forces and what effect could they have? How powerful would supernaturals in the Dresden Files be in various situations? For example, we have a rather inexperienced Harry Dresden blast the Loup-Garou through several walls in a single blow and burn down a large building with a big fire spell. We have a more experienced Harry able to shield himself against multiple machineguns and also able to detonate the gas tanks of several military vehicles at once. We have Ebenezar McCoy handle several hundred heavily armed mercenaries and Cowl hex an entire city.

So, how does this translate refresh-wise? It should be interesting to make a scale for comparison purposes;


1) At what refresh/power is a supernatural creature or channeler rougly comparable to a human soldier in the army?

2) At what refresh/power is a supernatural individual capable of handling several soldiers? I.e. Harry appears capable of that from the first few books.

3) At what refresh/power is a supernatural being capable of taking out a main battle tank? Could a Denarian do it for example?

4) At what refresh/power is a supernatural individual capable of handling hundreds of mortal troops, like Ebenezar seems able to?

5) At what refresh/power is a supernatural individual capable of disabling or destroying mortal infrastructure on a large scale, like Cowl hexing Chicago?

6) Barring ascencion rituals and unusual circumstances, at what power level could a supernatural individual destroy an entire human nation (rapidly or in a prolonged conflict), provided other supernaturals don't stop him/her/it?

[Haru]

I don't think that has anything to do with refresh.

A channeler of any kind, if creative enough, can be pretty dangerous to a group of soldiers or even a tank. A character with ritual (diabolism) could, given enough time, take on pretty much anything, entire human nations included.

Cowl hexing Chicago was pretty much just a warmup to the darkhallow, ruleswise he was creating aspects to tag for the final ritual. There is no reason someone weaker shouldn't be able to create similar circumstances, even if he will probably need more time or has to create some by hand (without magic, that is).

[Bruce Coulson]

I think it's a question of options, rather than power.

A sufficiently powerful entity could probably over-awe and conquer a small nation with ease...but if they did so directly, they wouldn't survive human retaliation.  Given enough numbers and incentive, the default assumption in the Dresdenverse is humans win...against anything.  Oh yes, they would take a horrible beating and thousands of soldiers/civilians would die; but so would, say, Ferrovax.

Which is why the supernatural players work together to keep things secret.

Spell-casters are the sterotypical glass cannons in a direct conflict; 3-5 effects, and they're staggering, which means again, sufficient numbers can wear them down pretty quickly.  Thaumaturgy changes things, but takes time to prepare. 

Your basic caster, from the start, can throw battlefield-level damage evocations; the question is, how long can they keep doing that?  4-5 tanks, maybe.  And what about missiles and other objects moving too fast to be seen, and exploding too far away to be hexed?

Evocation and Thuamaturgy are force-multipliers, allowing for casters to apply force far beyond what similar refresh powers can accomplish...at least for short bursts.

So, it depends on the type of conflict.  In a direct, stand-up type of fight, direct powers (Inhuman/Superhuman/Mythic) levels of Strength/Speed/ Toughness count for a lot more.  In any contest where there's time to prepare, casters refresh is equivalent to 2x to 3x the equivalent refresh of any other powers...at least.

In last two examples, I think you're talking ludicrous levels of Refresh for a supernatural monster...or maybe 12-15 refresh for casters.

[BumblingBear]

Mechanically, I think the blast to the Loup Garou was a result of several NGMs, taxing out his mental stress track, and using all of his fate points in one shot.

Since the beast is immune to the damage, the GM Jim stated that the Loup Garou was blasted through several buildings to enhance the story.

[EldritchFire]

Mechanically, I think the blast to the Loup Garou was a result of several NGMs, taxing out his mental stress track, and using all of his fate points in one shot.

Since the beast is immune to the damage, the GM Jim stated that the Loup Garou was blasted through several buildings to enhance the story.

I would call that a maneuver invoked for effect. A nasty evocation vs. the loup-garu's Endurance. First tag is free, so he goes flying through a few walls etc.

I agree with BumblingBear that it most likely taxed his mental stress and most of his Fate Points. You want to make sure he feels it the first time...

-EF

[BumblingBear]

I would call that a maneuver invoked for effect. A nasty evocation vs. the loup-garu's Endurance. First tag is free, so he goes flying through a few walls etc.

I agree with BumblingBear that it most likely taxed his mental stress and most of his Fate Points. You want to make sure he feels it the first time...

-EF

I thought about that too.

I think either way would have worked, because even if it were an attack rather than a maneuver, that is a HELL of a lot of force.  I think it would be in the realms of godly GM power to say that such an attack moves the beastie several zones too - especially if the monster is immune to damage.

[Belial666]

Well, mortals are rather annoying and if you give them time to organize and a target to strike, they can steamroll you. Consider, however, the following scenarios;


1) Fae or demon with Greater Glamours and faerie magic (or hellfire) goes around airports and other crowded places (stadiums, anyone?) throwing plague spells so she can tally up consequences both from personally cursing mortals and from the secondary chaos the plague causes. She does so in as many different places as she can and mortals can't see her at all.


2) Loup-Garou equivalent creature with physical immunity. How do mortals stop it?


3) Mavra. She can do some serious veils, travel through the Ways and turn victims into vampires and thralls. So she opens a Way into a campsite (no thresholds), drags off a couple dozen mortals during the night. Then retreats through the Ways for the day and turns a quarter of the victims into vamps and the other three quarters into thralls - which serve as portable bloodbanks too. Next night goes off into another place and repeats. Couple of days and she has an army. Then she goes off to a small city in another state with hundreds of vamps and thousands of thralls. Turns the entire city to minions and retreats through the ways. Keeps doing that until she can beat the US military.

[BumblingBear]

Well, mortals are rather annoying and if you give them time to organize and a target to strike, they can steamroll you. Consider, however, the following scenarios;


1) Fae or demon with Greater Glamours and faerie magic (or hellfire) goes around airports and other crowded places (stadiums, anyone?) throwing plague spells so she can tally up consequences both from personally cursing mortals and from the secondary chaos the plague causes. She does so in as many different places as she can and mortals can't see her at all.


2) Loup-Garou equivalent creature with physical immunity. How do mortals stop it?


3) Mavra. She can do some serious veils, travel through the Ways and turn victims into vampires and thralls. So she opens a Way into a campsite (no thresholds), drags off a couple dozen mortals during the night. Then retreats through the Ways for the day and turns a quarter of the victims into vamps and the other three quarters into thralls - which serve as portable bloodbanks too. Next night goes off into another place and repeats. Couple of days and she has an army. Then she goes off to a small city in another state with hundreds of vamps and thousands of thralls. Turns the entire city to minions and retreats through the ways. Keeps doing that until she can beat the US military.

I think this might have been done before.

MsDuck I think it was said that the Black Death in Europe may have been BCVs multiplying like crazy.

This could be why the WCVs published Bram Stoker's Dracula, and why the rest of the supernatural world seems to be anti - BCV.

That said, I think the only reason why stuff like you mentioned isn't happening is that the supernatural world is in the state of Cold War.  Nobody is willing to completely go to war because it could mean annihilation and nobody wants to let the mortal world rabbit out of the hat.

I think it's been done before in the DFV, letting mortals know about the supernatural so the torches and pitchforks come out.  In the modern world, it would be arguably both easier and harder to do now.  While communication is greater than ever in human history, cynicism is as well.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'll throw in my support for the people saying "refresh isn't all that important".

Truth is, random mortal terrorists can do massive damage. They don't need powers, they just need the ability to project force against undefended targets. Which isn't hard to come by.

Supernatural beings would be very good at terrorism. Here's why:

1. Terrorist strategies get more effective when the force projected becomes more concentrated. And a magical entity can represent a tremendous concentration of force.

2. Supernatural monsters often have no human morals. This removes the single biggest impediment to a terrorist campaign. (My personal theory about suicide bombers is that they kill themselves at least partly to avoid having to live with their own consciences.)

3. They have a separate society that is secretly inside the mundane one. This gives them an incredible tactical advantage, since it lets them attack without real fear of retaliation.

So, why hasn't anything like this happened yet? My theory is that it has, but the perpetrators were killed by the White Council or some similar group. Or perhaps it was just some plucky hero who stopped them. Whatever.

[Bruce Coulson]

If the supernatural world was a united force, then Humanity indeed would be nothing but a food source.

Fortunately for humanity, that's not the case.  No supernatural group wants another to get exclusive rights to Humanity.  So, make too much trouble and someone will be forced to rat you out to humans...along with the method to stop you.  Not out of altruism, but self-preservation.  In #1 and #3, the White Court (as an example) certainly would spill the beans, if neccesary, just to save themselves.

In case #2, the rules of the Dresdenverse means there's someway to get around the immunity.  Again, pose too much of a threat, and someone will stop you.

The chief difference between mortal spellcasters and the other supernatural groups is that those groups won't care about minor incursions.  Mavra slaughters an entire campsite?  Annoying.  Mavra starts assembling an army to take over a country?  Uh, no, sorry, not happening. If mortals want to stop the first part, they'll have to do it themselves.

[UmbraLux]

I agree with much of the above.  It may also be worth pointing out humans, without supernatural powers, can and have accomplished item 6.   

[ways and means]

I think a 20-30 refresh Kemmlerite Wizard could achieve number 6 in a fortnight with his legions of undead, a 50 refresh Kemmlerite Wizard could probably achieve the same effects in a couple of days. 

[Becq]

Pure refresh only speaks to potential influence in certain situations (which vary from power to power).

Knowledge and surprise are the two most powerful weapons against most supernatural creatures.  A wizard could vaporize small armies if properly prepared ... but could be killed by a steak knife from behind while walking through a crowd.  A loup-garou is largely invulnerable ... but if its foes know its weakness, they can prepare a fatal surprise.

Lack of free will is a supernatural creature's greatest limitation.  They are driven by their natures, which limits their options.  An archangel can't lay waste to the entire vampire population of the world not out of lack of power, but because he is bound not to interfere by his nature.  Likewise, a demon *can't* rampage through a city, but he can offer deals of a more limited scope.

So to a large extent, the answer to the general question is "it depends on the situation".  Some specific responses (that weren't mentioned above):

Fae terrorism: to my understanding, it's not possible.  By default, a Fae has very little power over mortals unless given it, typically as part of a deal of some sort.

Mavra's army: there are some practical details that prohibit this.  Each enhanced Renfield takes three days to create and lives for no more than a month after, so max ten super-Renfields at a time.  With normal Renfields, the shelf life is not defined, but it still takes a day each to create.  So that's a maximum of 365.25 basic Renfields per year.  If they lived another 20 years, then that puts the limit on basic Renfields at maybe 7000, which is a lot, but not really an international threat.  Not only that, but those Renfields need to be fed, creating a logistical problem that the Renfields themselves would be hard-pressed to solve in a subtle fashion.  Human servants might help, but now you need to worry about training and loyalty.  Vampiric servants take time to create, cause feeding problems, and might have their own agendas.

As to most of the other cases, yes a supernatural creature could take out a soldiers by the squad or even platoon.  But what about the regiment sent in next?  Could the creature take out a tank?  Probably.  But what about the next ten?