Magic and Fundamental Elements

[Obsid]

I have two purposes for this thread. One is to talk about how elements work with magic, and another is to open a custom system to review and critique. Don't take these statements as absolute fact. I've done research into the topic but I'm rusty so I can make mistakes. If I do, feel free to correct me.

Western Culture tends to think in terms of the four Classic or Greek Elements used in alchemy, other pseudo-sciences, pseudo-philosophies, and pure mythos.

Sometimes a fifth element is added to the list. I think the fifth element has a sort of, five of four, one-up, or otherwise topping effect on the way people see the elements. The oldest reference to a fifth element I'm familiar with is Anaximander's Apeiron, an element from which the common four is derived. Other ideas have included aether, a substance lighter than air, which fills the spaces between the stars. The movie, "The Fifth Element" proposed Love as the fifth element. And most neopagan and other modern mystical ideas seem to lean towards Spirit.

Different cultures have had their own sets of classic elements throughout history. Another popular one being the Chinese system including Fire, Water, Wood, Earth, and Metal. For more information, worship Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

the OW entry on Ancient Mai indicates that she might use Chinese elements to derive her magic from. The idea of wood magic feel sketchy to me, since wood is biological which would make it pretty hard to use in evocation, but it has good flavor nonetheless.

The way a wizard or other spell caster conceptualizes their magic is important. Most of us know, after all, that water is not a fundamental element of the universe, it's simply the combination of two elements. Earth, likewise, consists of a myriad of elements. (from a scientific standpoint at least, the classic elements are just silly). But if you think in terms of earth, fire, water, and wind, then your magic will reflect that. Likewise a gag character who thinks in terms of cheese, peanut butter, pasta, and woman, will probably have magic that somehow reflects this too (though I doubt he'll succeed at an evocation attack that throws bursts of woman around).

There's agenda item one completed. I think the idea of elements working based on belief is interesting, but might need limits. What should the limits be? Should there be an overarching pattern to all systems of elements? Should I eat my cake or have it?

Agenda item two. I've been working on my own philosophical way of viewing elements. This is based primarily on reason, what pleases me at the moment, symbolism, and some key concepts of Dao. I've made many versions of this system and this most recent version I crafted to work well with a spell caster in the Dresdenverse. For those of you unfamiliar with Dao, continue to worship Wikipedia. Otherwise don't worry, I don't require you to know where I'm coming from, and I think I speak pretty decent English.

The first aspect of Dao is the Taiji, or Taichi. The great absolute or supreme ultimate. This can be compared to Anaximander's aforementioned Apeiron if it pleases you to do so. I'll get back to this.

The Taiji "produces" the Liangyi. That is the Yin and Yang.
Yin is the receiving. The pull. It's often correlated with the spirit. But in my system I correlate it with Matter (also thinking of including Void and Form). It can be symbolized by two short lines. -/-
Yang is the giving. The push. It's often correlated with the body, but in my system I correlate it with Energy. It can be symbolized by one long line. --

From here on out the similarities between my system and Dao are only in their binary form, so I'll stop alluding to them. I recommend using this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba_gua as a start point if you want to look into them more.

Combining Ying and Yang. For the symbol, add the two short lines of Yin, or the long solid line of Yang, on top of whatever you're adding it to.

Two Yang makes Fire. (Latin. Ignis)
Add Yin to Yang to make Air. (Latin Aer)
Add Yang to Yin to make Water. (Latin Aqua)
And Two Yin makes Earth. (Latin Terra)

Add Yang to Fire to make Light. (Latin Lumen)
Add Yin to Fire to make Lightning. (Latin Levitas)
Add Yang to Air to make Thunder. (Latin Tonitrus)
Add Yin to Air to make Wind. (Latin Ventus)
Add Yang to Water to make Fog. (Latin Nebula)
Add Yin to Water to make Ice. (Latin Glacies)
Add Yang to Earth to make Stone. (Latin Silex)
Add Yin to Earth to make Metal. (Latin Metallum)

Now, if we correlate the Taiji with Spirit. Then...
Add Yang to Spirit to get Matter.
Add Yin to Spirit to get Energy.

We suddenly have a binary system with 5 primary elements and 10 secondary elements.  Almost entirely translatable into the default system of DFRPG.  It lacks a Wood element, but other than that, it's also almost entirely translatable into most historical element systems as well.

I think a character who views things in this way would be a very flexible caster. He might be predisposed towards using or avoiding Spirit (since it becomes more fundamental than the others) but I think that's also fitting.

Praise me. Criticize me. Come up with your own epic elemental awesomeness. Tell me how to make this work better.

Now for questions. Would a character who views things this way still specialize in Earth magic, or would they be predisposed toward specializing in a subtype (metal or stone)? If a character viewed magic this way, could the specialize in Matter and have that carry on to Earth and Water (which can be viewed as subtypes)? Or is it better to simplify? Did I just waste an hour of my life? Why do hotdogs come in packages of 10 and hotdog buns in packages of 8? Did you like my colorful wall of text?

[InFerrumVeritas]

Custom elements become problematic when it comes to specializations.  In fact, it can be used to break the system.  I'd be hesitant to allow any "belief" system that breaks it down to three or less elements.  The reason for this is because then you'd be able to do everything with basic evocation (because you can choose three elements) and no refinement.  I don't like that as it changes the power of the power.

The system assumes at least 5 elements.  Beliefs with more or the same work.

[Viatos]

Custom elements become problematic when it comes to specializations.  In fact, it can be used to break the system.

Right, but for the wrong reasons. The issue is that you need to be able to build a specialization skill pyramid. Being able to "do it all" in three elements is irrelevant; you can already accomplish any given goal with three of the five standard elements in any case. I am sure a very interesting thread could be made by picking three elements and a problem, and demanding a solution.

[sinker]

I might worry about over specializing as well. When there are too many elements you get parts of the system that people will gloss over entirely and then there's just no reason for them (I'm looking at you, Fog). I like the concept though, very cool.

One of the things I've always loved about the traditional Chinese five elements is that each one has an emotional and biological association (for example wood is associated with anger, patience and charity, as well as the liver, eyes and gall bladder). Makes for a really interesting element system where at least from a neuromancy/biomancy standpoint each element is unique in what it can do.

Why do hotdogs come in packages of 10 and hotdog buns in packages of 8?

Because Bratwurst come in packages of six. 

[citadel97501]

"Why do hotdogs come in packages of 10 and hotdog buns in packages of 8?"

I have a simple answer to that, "Life doesn't always work out according to plan..... so be happy with what you've got.... you can always get a hotdog."  If you know the movie, you win 10 geek points. . .

[Obsid]

Custom elements become problematic when it comes to specializations.  In fact, it can be used to break the system.  I'd be hesitant to allow any "belief" system that breaks it down to three or less elements.  The reason for this is because then you'd be able to do everything with basic evocation (because you can choose three elements) and no refinement.  I don't like that as it changes the power of the power.

The system assumes at least 5 elements.  Beliefs with more or the same work.

Good points. One could allow such systems by redefining things. Like, allowing refinement in half (rounded up) of the belief-systems elements. This means that taking evocation and following a 3 element system allows only 2 specializations for free. A 2 element system allows only one. But that it wouldn't be so easy to modify refinement.

If we build my system into a tree we have....

Spirit < Material, Energy.
Material < Earth, Water || Energy < Air, Fire.
Earth < Metal, Stone. || Water < Ice, Fog. || Air < Wind, Thunder. || Fire < Lightning, Light.

If we restrict specialization to Spirit, Earth, Water, Air, and Fire (the same elements as in the default system) then that simplifies things.

We can also declare that a specialization doesn't extend further than 0, or 1 level below the specialized element. (0 means fire doesn't give you lightning. 1 means Spirit gives you Material but not Earth.)

If we restrict to the 5, and allow synergy to 1 level below, then we don't really have any problems (it's exactly the same as the default system). If we only restrict synergy to 1 level below, then things get more interesting, and more complicated.

I might worry about over specializing as well. When there are too many elements you get parts of the system that people will gloss over entirely and then there's just no reason for them (I'm looking at you, Fog). I like the concept though, very cool.

There's an issue with that as well. If you treat all 15 elements individually, then you underpower a lot of it, and a system who's virtue is in flexibility, becomes rigid and worthless.

As for Fog in particular... There's just no cool way to say "water vapor" or "gaseous water." When naming these elements, I went back and forth between English and Latin. I started in English (my native language, the language I think in), then translated into Latin using the Internet, and then back into English. Think of the Latin names as being more proper than the English names. Since magic ought always be spoken in Latin. ;p

The Latin word, Nebula, means Fog, Cloud, or Vapor. I chose to translate it back into Fog because Vapor sounds too scientific and Cloud sounds too silly. Fog magic would be a subset of Water magic that involves mist, fog, clouds, steam, and whatever other form of water you can think of that doesn't fall when in air. In the idealistic sense, Water magic can include any liquid, fog magic would then include substances which are, at room temperature, normally liquids.

My version of Harry's Ventus Servitas is Vente Porta. Literally, O Wind, Carry. A Nebula Porta spell would have a similar result, but with better special effects. See, not at all something to gloss over entirely. Fogs can also be used to carry poisons and, and obscure vision.

On another note.
When you combine Light, which is pure energy, with Lightning, which is actually a gas (yes, it's a plasma, but that doesn't make it not a gas) you would get something in between. Fire is energy, but it's more than that, it's light, heat, and vapor. So, crudely, Light + Lightning = Fire.
Likewise when you combine Wind, which is Air in motion, with Sound, which is motion in air, you get Air. (presuming the energies in them cancel out, but humor me and don't complain)
When you combine Fog/Steam/cloud which is water turned gas, with ice, which is water turned solid, you get water (a liquid).
And when you combine various metals and stones, you get earth. (ok, this one's pretty loose, but metal and stone are the best I could come up with)

That's where the ideas (though not the names) for the secondary elements I listed come from.

"Why do hotdogs come in packages of 10 and hotdog buns in packages of 8?"

I have a simple answer to that, "Life doesn't always work out according to plan..... so be happy with what you've got.... you can always get a hotdog."  If you know the movie, you win 10 geek points. . .

It ... was a joke. Somewhere in heaven ... a poor unsuspecting angel is crying because of you.

[citadel97501]

It ... was a joke. Somewhere in heaven ... a poor unsuspecting angel is crying because of you.

Good I never liked those guys, always spying on me, and thinking their so superior just because they have wings. . .
(Kidding of course, I am willing to serve our winged overlords. . . )