Running a game for a large group.

[Birstel]

My gaming group is currently around 10-12 members, plus me as the GM.  I'm interested in running a Dresden Files game, but I've never done a Fate campaign.  I've only done D&D 3.5 and my buddy runs a Shadowrun game.  Any experienced FATE GMs with tips to handle a party of 10-12?

Thanks!

[Doc Nova]

Having run a game for 9, my first tip would be to keep the power level under control (unless you're wanting a very high-powered game, of course).  It will already be difficult providing steady and exciting challenges to that many players, as is.  Going at fully immersed levels will only add to that challenge.

Second, your biggest obstacle will be in making sure everyone has some means of contributing.  Typical combats will be over very quickly, so I would suggest "thinking outside the box".  Make sure there are social situations and mental challenges to encourage things beyond a group of 10 combat hounds.

FATE works well with large groups due to the simplicity of the base system and the cooperative narrative, though, so I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with how easily things flow. 

I would also encourage the group to really embrace the cooperative narrative; you might find yourself with an evening of game play where you, as the GM, pretty much get to sit back and watch while the players compel and instigate amongst themselves.

[JosephKell]

Any possibility of splitting into two games?  12 players is insane.  I remember playing in a 2nd Edition game where we had 8 (maybe 9?) players and it was pretty weird (I think we handled it by just having one initiative for the whole group and going around the table?  Which while kind of sucky for fairness, but unlike "true initiative" done in most games, I don't think we ever really had a problem with people getting skipped).

If there are other people prepared to run DFrpg, you could coordinate to try to do one session stories (different stories) so that those attending can be semi-randomly divided into the two games.  This way everyone can play with everyone else at some point.  Some weeks you could even have three games going (2 games of 3 players and 1 of 4).

I say "semi-randomly" because it is often easier to put carpoolers in the same games (this assumes people don't want to linger when others finish).

Just do City Creation together, with so many hands involved you are almost making a "living" campaign.  You could even do multiple city creations for the area (to give the GMs a bit of space if necessary).  To use my area as an example, you could do creation for San Francisco, the East Bay, the South Bay, and the North Bay.

I just don't think table top gaming lends itself well to large groups.  I am in a group of 7 (6 + GM) and it seems cumbersome at times.  No matter how "light weight" the rules are, there are always questions.  And people just want attention and to participate.  You may have to enact a "Act or delay" rule to prevent "Initiative Indecision" dragging the games pace to a crawl.  But that is under "initiative" conditions.

How do 10 people participate in a social conflict?  It is just too many people.  Everyone wants to participate and while it is unavoidable that they have to take turns, those turns inevitably become longer when you roleplay social scenes.  It will become a case where 1 or 2 players take the lead on social scenes and everyone else is basically a combat sidekick.

And that doesn't even factor in verisimilitude.  10 people is 2 car loads of people.  Can you imagine the generic reaction of a criminal organization when 10 (TEN) people come to ask questions?  1 or 2 (maybe even 3) unexpected visitors means business, 10 means blood.

The best advice I can give is to:
1.  Find a local group to join in a one-shot as a player so you can experience the system when everyone isn't staring at you for the answers.
2.  Failing that, grab a few of the more diverse gamers (by this I mean people that have played a variety of games and enjoyed them) and do a small one-shot with them so you can all figure out the gist.

I would never suggest someone try to pick up a new game and leap right into a giant epic with a large group.  That is just going to spend your great ideas on underdeveloped scenes and conflicts that have a better chance of being too easy/hard than balanced.  Wouldn't you rather save those overarching stories for when you have a good grasp on the system?

But I can't stress enough how much more fun you will all have by doing more smaller groups.

[mostlyawake]

I agree with the power level.  Submerged with 5 players can be hard to present credible threats, as you quickly reach "omg someone is trying to kill the city AGAIN?" levels.  Plus, there's more niche protection if you are playing at -4 or so than -9 refresh characters. No one can be a full wizard, forcing them to rely on each other.  Everyone has less skill points, forcing them to divide up roles.

Appoint a co-DM, who does all of your book-keeping and handles part of it when the group breaks up. 

Try to keep things moving, as bogging down really kills a group that big.

Limit the amount of reasonable cooperation they can do; 12 people can't try to break down the same door but sometimes big groups will try to use everyone to get a bigger bonus.

On the other hand, encourage cooperation, as it gives you less scenarios to manage at once. Instead of Sue going off to do the tracking spell, 3-4 of them could, and then you've got 2-3 less things going on than handling individual events.

Make it clear that your world is very dangerous and that they need to stick together - and I mean together. Like, maybe several share an apartment or buy a mansion.  You want bulk buy-in, basically you don't want to have to deal with 12 issues of downtime, 12 people to get into every scenario, ect.  Have them form a group that always works together, so you can sell it to the group.

Consider that every single stat you put on an NPC will be easily matched by at least 1 PC, probably by 2-3 PCs, and possibly by every PC.  Again, limiting their refresh (to cap skills at +4) gives you a little advantage in that you can put them up against higher refresh characters (skill cap at +5).  This lets the character split attacks and still present a threat.

hope it helps!

[Richard_Chilton]

I don't have as much experience with FATE as others on the board, but the game doesn't lend itself to wallflowers.  In D&D someone can always swing a sword on their turn, but FATE can be more about aspects, which means that some players can get crowded out.

On the other hand, 12 players mean that 11 of them can assign tags while the 12th comes in and invokes all 11 tags... and I think that the system breaks down at that points.

Richard

[luminos]

12 is a lot.  More than I think you can successfully play with in one group for this game.  FATE is not a system friendly to the idea of the GM saying everything that happens while the players nod and go along with it. Its a system where the players have some degree of narrative control, which means that they should be active.  If you have 12 people all trying to play an active role in the game, you are either going to have day long sessions, or pandemonium. 

[finnmckool]

Yeah, that's a Platoon. Their numbers are formidable.

OOoo! You could pit them against each other!

[Tom Reed]

At one of my local game stores there is currently a World of Darkness game that has been going for over a year...with 18 people! The way they work this is that there is one main GM and two co-GMs. From what I have seen, unless there is a conflict, most of the players are happy to break up into smaller groups and roleplay amongst themselves, letting the GMs know if something signifcant happens that might affect any of the other players.

[Birstel]

Thanks for all the replies, the Dresden Files game won't be happening for a little while, we're still wrapping up a D&D campaign.  There will be a few less people by then though, two of our group are leaving out of state for a new job, and at least one other person is getting stationed in Japan next year.  So it might be down to 8 or 9 by then.  The multiple groups idea sounds good, I might be able to get the guy that runs our Shadowrun game to be a co-GM.  I'll have to see if we can figure out if we can have PCs ourselves or we will just be GMs.

Thanks for the help!

Birstel

[Kaldra]

i have run several 10-14 person groups for dnd and shadowrun, as long as your willing to trust a co dm ( or two in my case ) then go a head.

heres how i structured the sessions.

we usualy played for 6-8 hours total at a time, think weekends or fridays with midnight food runs.

before each session i would sit down with my fellow dm's and give them a general out line of what was going to happen, the thing about having multiple groups so to speak is that you get to be really creative with problems and stories.

since we usualy broke into three groups the roles more or less fell into the support group who runs a mission that makes the other two easier in some fashion, the "assult" crew who lead the main charge so to speak, and the "distraction" crew who well hit the beehive with a stick and ran for all they were worth ( quite literaly once with an insect infestation in a shadow run campagin ).

another way to strucure it in a more investigation way would be ok you guys go check out the creepy mansion, you guys rundown the criminal element and we will go try and track the trail of the killer.

i went ahead and planned out all of the bad guys and areas, maps, charts ect and then would give my fellow dms a flow chart and a folder with what i hoped would be everything they needed.

every few hours of real life time we would take breaks and hit up a food stand or make a run to the the truck stop, during that time i would talk to my dms and see what was going on and where in the story they were, the general rule of thumb was that if one group gets done early the dm lets the others know and then the players can either start on a new story line or wait for the rest of the group to finish up,

if one group is taking longer than the others, aka they hit a snag, smoe one got captured then you can play on that and have one group stage a rescue for another or be the gandalf on the third at first light.

basicly it all comes down to be creative and make sure your players are ready to deal with down time every once and a while, use this for book keeping or for roleplaying.

also it can be fun to bring thw whole group together for a massive encounter, this lets you do things like fight a dragon, no way the average group could pull it off, but what about a group of 10 or 12?

as for ballancing encounters for larger groups there is a trick i use for this, i call it the red dragon chalenge.

start the group off at the begining of each challenge at either full normal stats or at 3/4 power ( has some hp missing/stresses or concequences ) then start out with a weak oppenet and work your way up until your party can no longer fight the beastie off.

this lets you see several things: how well do they work together? who will step up and lead the group? what can they deal with?

when doing this encounter dont do it on an empty expanse do it in a place where a fight might really happen in a wherhouse in a alley some where with things the players can use, trees for cover, rafters for hiding in ect..

in the end though the biggest thign you can do is to keep things moving, dont get bogged down because if you do every one who isnt involved in the problem will be bored.