What is the complexity to Transform Objects?

[Belial666]

#1 is not divination to actually predict the future. More like divination to find insider's information or analyze the situation. (i.e. a thaumaturgy use that replaces the normal skill used in financial investments).

#2 is very easy, actually. Just take a tiny diamond then search for more diamonds. Same type of stone, same chemical composition, same significance. There's your sympathetic link. Even easier for other types of gems because crystals of the same material form in identical shapes and similar sizes. Or you could do a divination that asks info from some earth spirits.



As for where to draw the line... we're trying to get rich here, people. Barring the actual laws of magic, there are no lines. Yes, it is perfectly fine to buy a mars bar and then use a ritual to spoil every other mars bar in the area so you can sue the company. With the way modern products come identical from mass production lines, you have ready-made sympathetic links from making all nearby shoes of a certain model break a heel to breaking an essential part in all Boeing 747 planes. All you need is time and getting your hands in one copy of the item.

[Becq]

Try these out for size:

Basic rules:
Matter can't be created.  (Ectoplasm can make up a deficit.)
Matter likes being generally what it was intended to be, and it's not good at being something different.

Process:
1. Determine the base difficulty to 'craft' the item, assuming it was possible to do so with the materials on hand.  Improbable and impossible things are doable with magic.
    Ex: Making a steak is not rocket science.  Even if you're making it out of a potato or a penny.  Using a higher base difficulty improves the quality of the finished product.
2. Determine the length of time it would normally take to craft the item.
    Ex: Preparing a steak takes perhaps a half hour or hour or so.
3. Determine the desired casting time.
    Ex: I'm hungry.  Five minutes sounds good.
4. The complexity is equal to the base difficulty (step 1) plus shifts downward on the time chart from (step 2) to (step 3).  See below for possible additional difficulty.
    Ex: For a fair-quality steak (base 2) prepared in 5 minutes instead of an hour (3 shifts), the complexity would be 5.
5. Cast away, and you're done!

But then what happens?
1. If you started with material closely related to the desired product, and started with about as much mass as you ended up with, then the change is permanent.
2. Generally, compatibility is flexible.  Meat is meat.  Metal is metal.  Vegetation is vegetation.  Etc.  However, materials that are precious, rare, or otherwise difficult or expensive to obtain are not considered compatible with other materials.
3. If you started with material closely related enough, but didn't have enough, then the balance would have been filled in with ectoplasm, which will dissolve in the same way as a conjured item (which in essence it is).  Note that you must be capable of Conjuration magic to be able to do this sort of Transformation, and you must use your bonus for whichever category you are weaker in.
4. If you started with a incompatable material, then the material will revert to it's original material type over time (same time scale as for dissolving ectoplasm).
5. In either of the above cases, the longevity of the product can be improved by addiing complexity determined by the number of shifts down on the time table.

Note that when the material reverts, it will revert only in material type, not in shape, etc.

Examples:
Turning a chicken into a steak:  Both are meat, so the change will be permanent assuming there was enough chicken to begin with.
Turning a suitable pile of building materials (or even the remains of a house that was badly damaged by and earthquake) into a house: Assuming enough materials, permanent.
Turning a potato into a steak: Incompatable materials; left long enough, you will find yourself with a steak-shaped potato.
Turning a steel pen into a dagger: Insufficient material, ectoplasm will dissolve leaving a very porous and fragile blade.
Turning a sword into a dagger: Permanent.
Turning a bar of lead into a bar of gold: Incompatible materials, will revert to lead.
Turning a gold bar into a gold candlestick: Permanent.

How does this look from a balance perspective?  I think the complexities should end up being reasonable.  Also note that using Transformation to scam people is possible ("Hey, want to buy this 100% Pure golden sandwhich?"), but the victim might well seek justice once he learns he's been duped.

[Belial666]

1) Don't force people to be also good in conjuration if they want to make some transformations. Each "school" of thaumaturgy is assumed to include everything related to its use. For example, a summoner uses its summoning skill to build wards against demons and summoned creatures, not his warding, and uses its summoning skill to conjure bodies for spirit entities and demons to inhabit, not his conjuration. A diabolist uses diabolism for demonic curses, demon summoning, demonic bindings and the like, not disuption, summoning and warding respectively.

2) Remember that small amounts of almost any substance exist in the common soil and seawater. A transmuter that attempts to transform a house-sized cube of soil into one pound of uranium is going to succeed simply because that much uranium already exists into said soil. They are simply very hard to extract using common means - but magic could definitely do it.


3) Gold was first synthesized from mercury by neutron bombardment in 1941. Gold costs as much as $35000 per Kg while mercury is much cheaper. In addition, Tungsten has a cost of $30 per Kg. Osmium has a cost of $12217 per Kg. Tungsten can and has been turned into Rhenium which then can and has been turned into Osmium. A wizard could circumvent the required nuclear reactor by using a powerful transmutation spell and then buy Tungsten and Mercury and sell Osmium and Gold.

[babel2uk]

3) Gold was first synthesized from mercury by neutron bombardment in 1941. Gold costs as much as $35000 per Kg while mercury is much cheaper. In addition, Tungsten has a cost of $30 per Kg. Osmium has a cost of $12217 per Kg. Tungsten can and has been turned into Rhenium which then can and has been turned into Osmium. A wizard could circumvent the required nuclear reactor by using a powerful transmutation spell and then buy Tungsten and Mercury and sell Osmium and Gold.

But for the gold you would need 6 times as much mercury, the result would be radioactive since while you can do away with the reactor arguably the transmutation process would have the same results. And the hat making industry discovered the down side of working with large amounts of mercury. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there are some big down sides that may explain why it's not common practice.

[Belial666]

Yeah, but it also explains why the alchemists of old were crazy about gathering mercury, does it not? Besides, with enough shifts you could replicate the effect of a particle accelerator, not a nuclear reactor, and thus make broaded atomic-level transmutation which would result in non-radioactive gold.



Money aside, there's one form of thaumaturgy (a very common one actually) you have not considered in your rules; shapeshifting. Turning someone into a newt against their will is forbidden. Making a potion or spell or enchanted belt to turn yourself into other forms though? How about cursing someone into becoming a Loup Garou?

[Drashna]

Well, the shapeshifting would depend on if it's permanent or not. If it is, a baseline of 26 shifts is needed. Permanent transformation must effect all consequences (2 for mild, 4 for moderate, 6 for severe, and 8 for extreme), and then the stress track (4 more on the safe side) and then assume the max roll of 4.  That's assuming that other "powers" aren't active and that aspects are being invoked, or extra stunts for more consequences. For a newt, a base 26 is just fine, not much more is needed.  But for something like cursing somebody into a Loup Garou, I'd say that at a minimum, that you'd need to add the refresh cost to the shifts required.  That's 21 refresh, so 21 more shifts.  And story-wise, the Curse would keep the bloodline alive and prevent anything from killing it off.  I'd be inclined to say that it's like the "weapons grade entropy curse" but in reverse. Things "align" to keep it alive. And require that the Curse victim have a high concept related to the curse so it could be compelled in such a way.  This is a 41 shift curse, and definitely not a small thing.

[ironpoet]

I'm going to split the Making Money With Magic conversation into its own thread, because there's a ton of good story ideas there.

New Thread: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22177.0.html

[Kaldra]

i would say that you would have to provide the extra umph for extra powers while shapeshifted, aka you would have to provide the powers you want them to have that makes them an unstopable killing machine

[ironpoet]

Try these out for size:
...
How does this look from a balance perspective?  I think the complexities should end up being reasonable.  Also note that using Transformation to scam people is possible ("Hey, want to buy this 100% Pure golden sandwhich?"), but the victim might well seek justice once he learns he's been duped.

Hmmm... my problem with these guidelines is that (a) they change the rules for the amount of time needed to cast a spell, and (b) they set up some weird feedback problems when determining complexity.  Choosing the first example: "Transform a fast food burger into a steak dinner"

1) It's possible to create a steak dinner from the materials provided.  Let's say I want a Good (+3) steak.
2) It normally takes about a half-hour to cook a Good steak.
3) I want to make it in one minute, so +3 shifts.

- The complexity of the spell is +6, and I can cast it in one minute (plus prep time and casting time).

- Unfortunately, my Lore is only +4, so I can't cast this spell without preparation.  Unless I want to spend Fate points on my dinner, I'll have to spend extra time to make up the difference, making this one minute spell take at least a scene or more.

- Okay, in that cast I'll just make it in "a few minutes", which only adds +2 shift instead of +3.  The total complexity is now +5, which is still too high.

- So I'll settle for a Fair (+2) steak to make the total complexity +4, which I can cast without preparation in a few minutes.

- Of course, the prep work and gathering the power to cast the spell will already add on a few more minutes, so I may as well change the casting time to "fifteen minutes" (which only adds +1) and make the quality of the steak Good (+3) again.

This is an extreme example, I admit, but I think it demonstrates how these guidelines aren't as streamlined as I'd like.  I think the dramatic tension should be "Can you prepare and cast this spell in time?" as opposed to "Can you figure out the best compromise between quality and casting time?"

Did you have any specific problems with the guidelines I had suggested before?  Are there examples where those guidelines come up with really high and/or unrealistic complexities?

[Becq]

The rulebook has a lot of situations in which it says "Sure, you could do this by magic ... but doing it the mundane way would be easier."  Making the steak is a good example of this.  Most of the time, it would be easier to head down to Outback and drop a few bucks instead of performing a ritual on a chicken leg to get the same effect.  And yes, reducing the time significantly is only much help for (a) jobs that would normally take a loooong time (like building the house), or (b) jobs that are simple enough that require no preparation.  Note also that spending scenes is only one option for preparation, and is also deliberately the least efficient.  Spending Fate to power applicable aspects (like your "Kitchen Wizard!" HC or your "Gourmet Chef" aspect takes no time (though that brings us back to the question of why you're spending Fate to cast the Steak Dinner spell instead of just heading to Sizzler).

Then again, if you're lost in the desert and manage to catch a lizard ... well, this might be a good option.

[Drashna]

Then again, if you're lost in the desert and manage to catch a lizard ... well, this might be a good option.

Might?! Might?!?!  
I think the original purpose of the post was to get an idea of the complexity of how to do some of this stuff as the book leaves it... I'd say open, but that's an understatement!

But yeah, turning food into other food is probably a foolish waste of time and effort for a wizard.

[ironpoet]

I think the original purpose of the post was to get an idea of the complexity of how to do some of this stuff as the book leaves it... I'd say open, but that's an understatement!

Exactly!

But yeah, turning food into other food is probably a foolish waste of time and effort for a wizard.

The inspiration for the "burgers into steak" idea was a Wizard with Mediocre (+0) Resources who nevertheless had high standards for living.  So transforming burgers into steak would be purely (excuse the pun) flavor for the character, with no mechanical benefits.  But it feels like something a wizard would do.

Similarly, yes, maybe it's easier and possibly quicker to haul my laundry over to the laundromat.  But, darn it, after spending fifty years of my life exploring and documenting the limits of transmogrification, I'm going to use my talents, save my quarters, and transform my dirty laundry into clean laundry!

Realistically, you'd never bother to roll for either of those examples, but it would be nice if they were at least possible for a High Lore wizard to pull off.  But, like you said, I'm more interested in the practical applications of Transformation.

• Want to sneak some secret documents out of a building, but they'll search your bag when you leave?  Transform them into a Pulp Mystery novel.
• Need an antidote to Black Widow venom, but you don't have a lab nearby?  Transform some nearby flowers (assuming you know what the antidote is).
• Need to make a good impression?  Temporarily transform your "Cheap Clothes" into a "Stlylish Suit".
• Being chased by a werewolf?  Transform your silver earrings and your knife into a Silver-coated Dagger.
• Timmy trapped down a well?  Transform the smooth walls into a ladder.

[Becq]

Similarly, yes, maybe it's easier and possibly quicker to haul my laundry over to the laundromat.  But, darn it, after spending fifty years of my life exploring and documenting the limits of transmogrification, I'm going to use my talents, save my quarters, and transform my dirty laundry into clean laundry!

Bah, no self-respecting practitioner would use a tranformation in this situation.  Instead, this calls for animating your cleaning supplies to do the work for you...  While you're at it, animate the mop to do some floor cleaning, and...