Red Court Infected/Vampires and "Vegetarianism"

[Kragshot]

I just got the system (both books) and I'm having the time of my life reading and learning the game.

But to get to topic, I have a player interested in playing a Red Court Infected, but he has concerns about blood and feeding and I have no idea what to tell him. I know that I can easily make my own ruling on the issue, but I would like to know what is canon regarding the topic.

I know that if a Red Court Infected feeds and kills, then they are considered to have given completely in to their vampire nature and the player loses their character. But what about vampires who choose not to kill humans; considering the general idea of what happens "in nature," would their feeding on animals constitute a total concession to their nature, turning them into monsters?

I just want to anticipate questions because what I have are a bunch of "WoD" players and JB's concept of a magical world definitely conflict with what they are used to. I know that I could just be a "hard-ass" and say; "This ain't White Wolf; get over it!" But they are pretty good players and I'd rather just win them over.

TYVM, in advance!

[Deadmanwalking]

I'd say that feeding on animals is fine and won't result in a full change-over, but that killing them won't get you any more of a bonus than a normal (non-lethal) feeding on a mortal. They're a lot less nourishing.

[finnmckool]

You could even make it more complicated...

Feeding on the animal works in the short term, but you're drinking blood, so it just makes you want blood all the more long term. You could even give it a diminishing returns effect where every time he eats an animal it gives him less of a bonus to keep his hunger in check.

[Walker_Blade]

The books mention a few times that what the vampires from the red and black courts actually feed off of is the life force in the blood, so it would either be a vastly weaker source (possibly leading to a wierd new form of vampire that is much weaker as they get less life energy) or flat out not work and simply be gross.

[Kragshot]

I like the "diminishing returns" concept, but I would like the player to be able to have his character for awhile. Thanks for the input, guys.

BTW, I had the first of my "white wolf" arguments with one of my potential players. She's already chafing under the idea that she can't play a vampire and kill at her leisure. She's not liking the fact that the vampires are actually "teh bad guyz" in the DFU and she's giving me the "teh vampz aren't all bad" speech.

I'll keep posting with updates...

TYVM again for your input and advice!

Kragshot

[KOFFEYKID]

What refresh level are you playing at? If its a submerged game I have a possible solution for you, the powers for my red court vampire character (yes, a full red court vampire):

Gifted With Soul [+1]
Description: You are different from other Red Court Vampires. Normally your kind do not have a soul, for it is antithesis to your being, and destroyed once you have had your first killing feed. You however have somehow managed to store your soul in an item, making a phylactery of sorts.
Musts: You must be a red court vampire, must have an aspect that reflects this power.
Effects:
Silence the Beast. You loose your Echoes of the Beast power. As a Red Court Vampire with a Soul your beast is suppressed by the morals other Red Court Vampires lack.
Refresh Bonus. You have somehow maintained your soul, keeping free will. Add +1 to your refresh level.
Phylactery. Your soul is stored in an item that you must keep on your person at all times. If it leaves your person, you loose the above benefits, becoming an NPC. You may spend one fate point to give you one days time to retrieve the item.
Altered Catch. You are no longer burnt to a cinder in sunlight, but you are weakened in it. In sunlight your catch is automatically satisfied for any attack. In addition add a new condition to your catch: "Phylactery Damage."
Made Whole [-1]. If you take this upgrade your soul no longer resides in your phylactery, which becomes a mundane item, it has been restored to your body. You loose the "Phylactery" portion of this ability, and the "Phylactery Damage" condition on your catch.

And here is the next power my vampire will take, once she gets the chance:

Fountainhead of Blood [–2]
Description: You've somehow managed to cut the metaphysical ties that exist between master and servant. You are no longer beholden to the Red King, and are a sovereign in your own right.
Musts: When you gain this power, you must change your High Concept to reflect your new status as the fountainhead of a new bloodline of red court vampires.
Skills Affected: Discipline, Social Skills.
Effects:
Self Control. Your control over the thirst is unparalleled, you gain +1 to your Discipline when using it defensively.
Deeper Reserves. You are the most powerful vampire in your bloodline. Add two boxes to the length of your hunger stress track.
Liege Lord. You are the fountainhead of a new bloodline of red court vampires. Any social skills used against other vampire courts or bloodlines gain a +1 bonus. Increase this to +2 when dealing with members of your own bloodline.
Improved Feeding [-1]. If you purchase this upgrade you gain a +2 (instead of a +1) on subsequent attacks after causing your enemy to bleed, in a grapple you do two extra stress instead of just one. You may also use the Taste of Death of effect of the Blood Drinker power twice per scene instead of only once, however you must spend a fate point to use it the second time.

[TheMouse]

I imagine that a Red or Black Court vampire feeding on animals would be roughly like a person consuming water, crackers, and multi-vitamins and nothing else. Strictly speaking it's enough to live, but it's not exactly a pleasant way to live, and you're not going to be happy about it.

[Mal_Luck]

The description of Blood Drinker on YS188 provides that drinking via blood bags (and probably by extension non-human mammals) is not as fulfilling. If a White Court Vampires can "sip" emotions, Blood Drinkers can probably get by doing it as well (Examples: Angel and Spike of Buffy/Angel, Mick St. John of Moonlight, the "mainstreamers" of True Blood).

You could also make your own vampire, base a minor court on the more "romantic" ideals vampires inspire. The hypothetical discussion of a "Grey Vampire Court" might be what you looking for (I myself posted a hypothetical build for such a vampire that loses their powers during the day). For what your players are wanting, I would just take a Red Court Vampire (OW88), remove Addictive Saliva, Flesh Mask, Cloak of Shadows, and maybe Echoes of the Beast and then play with what satisfies the Catch a bit. Maybe add some sort of Supernatural Sense, but that depends on the brand of vampire your wanting.

Koffey's powers are also very nice if you don't want to make your own brand new Court. 

[GruffAndTumble]

Whatever is decided, I would make a point of emphasizing to your players that this is not WoD. Vampires are not tragic figures, cursed by a choice not their own. Every single full Red Court Vampire is a murderer, and killing is viewed as a lot more of a serious issue than WoD tends to hold it as being. The Hunger drives them to their first kill in many cases, but the themes of personal responsibility are among the strongest ones present in the series and 'verse.

Furthermore, the WoD, in my experience, encourages you to play monsters--not monstrous templates, but monsters in a moral sense. It encourages a bleaker view of things like necessity and survival than the Dresdenverse. I don't view this as inherently a bad thing, as role-playing goes--I don't believe for a minute it will influence the real beliefs and behaviors of a stable person to make believe that he's  an inhuman nightmare once a week. But it involves vastly different genre assumptions that the DFRPG.

[luminos]

Also, consider that vampires in the dresden verse are not people! (exception of white court, of course)  They are demons that have infected a host, and when the host is fully turned, the person that used to be there is completely gone.  Its just a demon (as in a nevernever monster, not something from hell) wearing a human face.  What works in WoD won't necessarily work (or even come close to working) for the dresdenverse.  My advice, is that when playing a game, the players accept the premises that the game is based on, and that by doing so you have more fun.

[Korwin]

Also, consider that vampires in the dresden verse are not people! (exception of white court, of course)  They are demons that have infected a host, and when the host is fully turned, the person that used to be there is completely gone.  Its just a demon (as in a nevernever monster, not something from hell) wearing a human face.  What works in WoD won't necessarily work (or even come close to working) for the dresdenverse.  My advice, is that when playing a game, the players accept the premises that the game is based on, and that by doing so you have more fun.

You could argue that. Changes Spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

See Susans last scene in Changes. She was turned, but she was still Susan. A demon in her place would not lay there to get herself sacrificed.

[Deadmanwalking]

You could argue that. Changes Spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

See Susans last scene in Changes. She was turned, but she was still Susan. A demon in her place would not lay there to get herself sacrificed.

Yeah,

(click to show/hide)

but the change was ongoing and incomplete

so that example may be invalid.

[Nomad]

As far as my understanding goes A Red Court infected is a battlefield between the human host's willpower and the hunger supplied by the demon. When you kill for the first time the hunger gains the upper hand and starts stomping on your humanity. In the end you will submit to being a beast. It will just take time and Susan in "Changes" was emotionally supercharged enough to avoid that fate for a little while.