Magical Manuevers

[Ihadris]

Ive been practicing with building rote spells and have become quite interested in placing temporary aspects, as a manuever, through the use of magic; just like Elaine's Whirlwind spell (YS: 295) and Evan's spell. (YS: 253)

As far as I understand the target gets a defence roll using a resisting skill correct? So, if I was wanting to place the aspect on an enemy rather than on the scene and wanted to be sure it would stick would I have to take into account their defence roll?  For instance the target has a resisting skill rated at +5, they could possibly roll a +4 result meaning the spell would take 9 shifts to be certain of at least placing a fragile temporary aspect.

Also, is the number of targets set at rote spell and enchanted item creation? Could an enchanted item or rote using 8 shifts of power as an attack against a single target normally be used to attack two targets with 4 shifts?

EDIT: Apologies for the premature posting.

[Wyrdrune]

with rote spells, number of targets must be set at creation. all parameters of rotes are fixed.

[Ihadris]

Thanks, Im leaning towards saying the same for Enchanted Items too.

I went back and looked through the rules regarding manuevers again and I found why I am a little confused.

On YS:207 it says:

...-you roll an appropriate skill against the opponent and try to beat the opponent's defense roll.

Where as on YS:252

By default, pulling of most manuevers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the targets has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher then Good (+3), that skill total determines the number of shifts.

So any ideas which it is? To craft a rote spell or create an enchanted item that is guarnteed to place a temporary aspect on a single opponent through a manuever do I need enough shifts to beat their best possible defence roll or enough shifts to surpass their resisting skill?

[Deadmanwalking]

What do you mean by "sure"? Nothing's ever completely sure, if only because of Fate points. If you have an Item or Rote that maneuvers against someone, they get a defense roll of some sort. If you beat them they get the Aspect you wanted to give them. If you don't beat them, they're okay. So, to be entirely sure, you'd need their Defense skill +5, +2 for every applicable Aspect they had, AND +1 more for every Fate Point they might have above that Aspect total.

For more reasonable levels of surety, I suggest higher than their base defense by, say, 2 points. They'll need an Aspect use or a really good roll to resist.

[Ihadris]

For more reasonable levels of surety, I suggest higher than their base defense by, say, 2 points. They'll need an Aspect use or a really good roll to resist.

 "Sure" really was a bad wording and I should have been clearer but you got what I was gunning for so thanks.

Im still a little confused by the difference in the rules for setting the difficulty for a manuever. I suppose it could be an intentional difference making magical manuevers easier to pull off then mortal ones but if that is the case it isn't made clear in the text.

[Biff Dyskolos]

I think the question here is how do you create a rote that places and aspect on the target when you can't know in advance what your targets defencive skill will be? You can't change the rote on the fly and if you only put 3 shifts into it then it just won't work on a target that has a Great or better defence.

It seems to me as though the rule give your target two defences. First you have to put in a number of shifts base on their defence or a minimum of 3 shift. Then you have to make a discipline roll to control and target the spell.

Even if you did put 5 shifts into your rote to match a Superb defence. They still get to make a defencive roll against your discipline roll. It's double dipping!