Outline Help

[TgirlValentine]

There was a topic on outlines, but it's been over 120 days old and i dont know how this board feels about "resurrecting" old topics.

So i'm a novice, if that, in the craft of writing. I'm a dreamer, so dont get me wrong i 've got plenty of ideas, but when it comes to writing i get stuck. It's not simple "writers block" as it is "writes insecurity of not being good enough for their own story" =0) i'm sure some here are familiar. SO i'd like to attempt outlining, but to be honest i'm not sure what all that entails. What are some "pre-outline" things i need to have in order to outline?

Thanks in advance for any help given.

[LizW65]

I'm not saying this will work for you, but I start with the general and move to the specific.  I usually start with an idea of who the principal characters are and what the story's main problem is.  Once I get that much down on paper, I can start to think about how I want the story to begin and end. 

By then I usually have some idea of backstory, and of different scenes and suppporting characters I want to include, even if I don't quite know how or where they fit in.   By the time I have a three or four page treatment, I can start breaking it down into chapters and from there I get more and more specific - by the time I'm ready to write I have half a page to a full page breakdown for each chapter, as well as character sheets, notebooks of research, and so on. 

Of course none of this is written in stone and may well change from time to time, but I personally can't finish anything if I don't have a very detailed and thorough outline.  Hope this helps...

[Murphy's Stunt Double]

JB himself actually has a really good article on his blog right now about this. Go here: http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/ Further down, he's also got more individual articles on the various parts of writing a story. I highly recommend you read it. Best advice I've seen in a long time.

[TgirlValentine]

JB himself actually has a really good article on his blog right now about this. Go here: http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/ Further down, he's also got more individual articles on the various parts of writing a story. I highly recommend you read it. Best advice I've seen in a long time.

I forget livejournal exists sometimes! thank you so much!

[TgirlValentine]

... and what the story's main problem is. 

yeah...about that LOL. my story has been evolving for...well atleast 10 years in my head. I've got an idea of my characters, and their inter-relations. I have a "bad guy"...though it's weak (because some things changed for my characters) and a "super"plot? (as opposed to a subplot LOL..okay maybe a subplot) that seems a bit trite to me. I was hoping i could hammer it out with some sort of outline. But i suppose i'll just have to keep truckin as they say.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

From my perspective, the only way to get an outline that accurately reflects a story is to write the story and then do the outline.

[Franzeska]

I like the "snowflake method", personally.  (You can google it.)  A lot of people find that just sitting down and writing works best for them, but I like to know exactly what my plot is going to be ahead of time.  I often brainstorm great general ideas but find, when doing my detailed outline, that I don't have enough plot for a story of the length I intend to write.  I'd rather find that out during the outline than half way through a novel when I suddenly need to add five subplots-worth of padding.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I often brainstorm great general ideas but find, when doing my detailed outline, that I don't have enough plot for a story of the length I intend to write.  I'd rather find that out during the outline than half way through a novel when I suddenly need to add five subplots-worth of padding.

I can't think of a circumstance in which I would choose to write to a length other than the length the story wants to be, that notion is very weird to me.  [ I can see how work-for-hire might need this, but nobody's going to be hiring me for that any time soon. ]

[Franzeska]

I can't think of a circumstance in which I would choose to write to a length other than the length the story wants to be, that notion is very weird to me.  [ I can see how work-for-hire might need this, but nobody's going to be hiring me for that any time soon. ]

Very true.  A lot depends on if you'd like to get published or not.  But even beyond that, I find that I personally don't have a very good sense for how many pages a particular amount of plot would naturally cover.  Outlining first lets me decide if I really have an idea for a novel or if I should think about turning it into a short story instead (which would usually involve truncating some of the backstory type material).  The length I intend the whole work to be can have quite an influence on my style, so I like to know ahead of time.

[TgirlValentine]

I can't think of a circumstance in which I would choose to write to a length other than the length the story wants to be, that notion is very weird to me.  [ I can see how work-for-hire might need this, but nobody's going to be hiring me for that any time soon. ]

Well free writing is generally how i brainstorm, but i've found through writing of essays (yeah i know, not the same thing as a novel or even short story) that the true writing comes in the editing. It's gotta be how a sculptor feels when they get the statue roughed out and watch as their creation comes alive.

I've also come to understand in my journey, that i am easily overwhelmed, and the sheer amount of info needed to write a novel/series or even short story is somewhat overwhelming. My hope in the outline was not that it would "tie me down" to any specific length, but just give me a guideline. We all know that things change. That we'll get a "dramatic" idea that is amazing...but completely changes the outlook of the story/idea.

Anyway, i ramble. i'm off to bed (have i mentioned that i LOVE spell check LOL)

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Very true.  A lot depends on if you'd like to get published or not.

I'd certainly like to get published; I'd certainly listen to an editor.  Good editors, though, from what I have seen, tend not to mess with the fundamental nature of the story. This is why they are so busy and take so long to get to manuscripts by unknowns. *sigh*

But even beyond that, I find that I personally don't have a very good sense for how many pages a particular amount of plot would naturally cover.  Outlining first lets me decide if I really have an idea for a novel or if I should think about turning it into a short story instead (which would usually involve truncating some of the backstory type material).

I'm a natural novelist, I think.  I've only written one short story that's satisfied me, and it took about the same amount of time as a through-draft of a 100,000 word novel because of how much finer the detail has to be.

Style depends on voice, really and voice is character.  D'Artagnan can narrate exactly the same set of events as Sam Spade, but it will take him at least three or four times as long if you're doing the voice of the original Musketeers books right.

[Franzeska]

I'd certainly like to get published; I'd certainly listen to an editor.  Good editors, though, from what I have seen, tend not to mess with the fundamental nature of the story. This is why they are so busy and take so long to get to manuscripts by unknowns. *sigh*

I've also heard that there has been a shift in the publishing industry over the years towards less and less content editing.  (Obviously there are still plenty of overworked acquisitions editors and copyeditors.)

[azjayp]

As far as outlines goes, and setting a book up to write, i am very methodical, and organized. i find this works best for me. the book i am writing took about 7 months to come up with all the information that i wanted in it.

fist i got down the world. everything from the countries, to the land formations, to the political structures, to what the resources and allies and enemies are for each country. i am not going to use it all in this book (mine will have multiple books in the series however) but "knowing is half the battle" and the information comes up on occasion.

then i got characters... all of them. i have added REALLY small characters since, but even the small characters got into the notes. this makes you think of the character and really form them as a real to life character. this info was just as detailed as the world info.

then i got a timeline down to go after (yes i already had the ideas, but putting them in an outline made it more feasible to write). once the timeline was done, i moved on to a scene by scene. this got the real details of each scene down so that once we started writing, we knew EXACTLY where we were going, and just had to "flesh out" what was already writen i the scene by scene.

being extremely organized in this process with forms for each thing helped immencely.

there were other things i put in the notes, but these are the most important ones.

this isn't for everyone, but it really does help...and i agree, go to the JB livejournal.