Author Topic: Are there Mormon influences in the Dresden Files?  (Read 2193 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Are there Mormon influences in the Dresden Files?
« on: August 31, 2022, 10:42:43 PM »
Firstly, I would like to acknowledge I am not Mormon and while I know some Mormons I don't claim to be an expert. So if I get things wrong or misunderstand, please forgive me. For any Mormon's on who might read this, I would love your insight and your contributions if you are comfortable sharing them - but no one is obliged either. I don't seek to offend so I do hope that will be taken into account with this discussion, and I will do my best to be respectful, but if I cross any lines please let me know (even PM me if you prefer). I don't think I am veering into Touchy Topics as the context is the relationship with the Dresden Files series.

Now, on to the actual discourse.

Up until now I never really noticed any particular connections between the Mormon faith and the Dresden Files, until I learned about what the Mormon's call Hell - the Outer Darkness.

In the standard Mormon faith (not talking about offshoots) Hell is a place outside reality. The Outer Darkness. It is mentioned three times in the New Testament in the Gospel of Mathew.

Quote
"Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matt. 22:13-14, D-R.)

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"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."(Matthew 25:30)
- mentioned in the parable of the talents.

Most of Christianity interpret this "outer darkness" as simply being separate from Christ, and to do with a wedding feast at the Second Coming.

However, the Mormons believe that essentially that it is Hell.

The obvious connections are the Lords of the Outer Dark/Night (a term I have only heard in the Dresden Files), who were the lords of the Red Court. The Outer Dark/Night has also been mentioned in Peace Talks in conjunction with the Cornerhounds (Hounds of Tindalos) - a type of Outsider.

So the Outer Darkness and Outside are likely synonymous.

The "gnashing of teeth" sounds a lot like the Outsiders who want to devour Creation and everything in it.

But here is where things get a bit stranger.

In the Mormon faith, a person who is good will not only ascend to Heaven but eventually will become like God themselves and have their own people to rule over. The idea is that even God in the Mormon faith was once a man on another world, who rose up and became what He is now. This also explains Jesus (and other prophets and messengers), and presumably, Saints. Saint just means holy person really, and yet we know they are so holy they are capable of great acts similar to other divine beings.

In the Dresden Files, we have learned that mortal's play a vital role in the growth of Creation as each choice they make spawns an alternate universe/timeline (Amberverse-style) leading to a nearly infinite number of universes. This is one of the main reasons that Free Will and Choice are so important. Mortal's are the only beings capable of this (by which I mean mortal's with souls). I suspect, and I think it's implied, that a soul is required for this. A soul is described by Jim as being made from the fundamental forces of Creation. This would give it tremendous power. Obviously, mortal's are highly constrained in that use and basically only can use it for spawning universes (which one could argue that you would need a significant power source to do such a thing). If mortals gather other power, they can take away their own choice (i.e. lose their soul). This is a big part of why their is a war for souls, given their value. Although I suspect that once a mortal "dies" and moves on, the soul becomes set like concrete. Hence the importance of the mortal world. You can change how the soul is before it "sets", if you like.

While I don't necessarily think that Butcher will have the Almighty of his Creation as previously being mortal (and I haven't seen any hints of that), I do think that mortal's in the Dresden Files are pre-divine (as their souls are already) and can metamorphose into their true divine form in the next world eventually (as Ghost Story clearly shows it takes time). If they become divine (i.e. do a rite of ascension and become a god) in the mortal world, they give up that ability to create new universes. A good example might be Harry's father, Malcolm Dresden who was not supernatural in the mortal world but might be now a lot more than a spirit just floating around.

I'll add more connections as I find them. Anyway, food for thought.

Again, I hope this doesn't offend anyone. My purpose is to discuss and perhaps to educate, a little.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2022, 10:50:53 PM by Yuillegan »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are there Mormon influences in the Dresden Files?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2022, 04:02:24 AM »


  I don't think so, while Mormons may use the term "Outer Darkness" when referring to Hell, it is
also a pretty generic fantasy term in my opinion.   

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Are there Mormon influences in the Dresden Files?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2022, 12:22:26 PM »
Fair enough, I admit I don't have enough evidence yet to make a substantial theory.

Then again, Jim is also a theology scholar and was raised in a fundamentalist religious environment so I don't think it's impossible either.

Thing is, "outer darkness" isn't that common in fiction. At least from what I have found so far. Do you have any examples you would care to share? The two closest are Dungeons and Dragons and the Lovecraft mythos that I have found.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Are there Mormon influences in the Dresden Files?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2022, 05:01:55 PM »
Fair enough, I admit I don't have enough evidence yet to make a substantial theory.

Then again, Jim is also a theology scholar and was raised in a fundamentalist religious environment so I don't think it's impossible either.

Thing is, "outer darkness" isn't that common in fiction. At least from what I have found so far. Do you have any examples you would care to share? The two closest are Dungeons and Dragons and the Lovecraft mythos that I have found.

Perhaps not exactly like that, but consider Darth Vader of Star Wars, he is also referred to as "the Dark Lord."  Tolkien called it "the Void," but also called it Everlasting Darkness. Finally
Quote
The Outer Darkness horror anthology web series is the latest project from the acclaimed U.K. filmmaking team of:

    Producer/Directors Ben Franklin and Anthony Melton

    Screenwriter Joel Morgan

    Director of Photography Jonny Franks

So it is out there in various forms..  And yes, I am aware from just his style of writing that Jim does incorporate religious elements in his story line, skillfully tip toeing his way through without offense, which is a great feat when one incorporates religious elements.  So you could be right about the Mormon influence, but then again what Jim has described so far as "the Outside," doesn't necessarily describe Hell either, but to my mind, more of the void, or dark as described in other fantasies.  We know Outsiders come from the Outside, but I get the impression that demons, who do seem to come from Hell are not coming from the Outside.  Does that make any sense? My example of that is Chauncy who Harry called up back in Fool Moon I think, mentioned that they had a place for Margaret until she changed.. I take that to mean she was damned until she met Malcolm.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 05:10:35 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: Are there Mormon influences in the Dresden Files?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2022, 10:45:28 PM »
Google search:
"the outer darkness" -matthew -matt

I see a dozen or so distinct sources on the 1st page of results.

Note that it doesn't need to have any direct basis on Mormonism to have some Biblical relation via pop-culture.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Are there Mormon influences in the Dresden Files?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2022, 04:11:47 AM »

Thing is, "outer darkness" isn't that common in fiction. At least from what I have found so far. Do you have any examples you would care to share? The two closest are Dungeons and Dragons and the Lovecraft mythos that I have found.

And for a guy who is obviously a gamer (that time Gaming Harry complained about knowing exacts on a fireball's expansion, I suspect AD&D 3rd level spell) and a fantasy reader, those are two obvious influences.

Dark Lord is common. Sauron, Dick Cheney, etc