Harry cheating death

[groinkick]

It's been mentioned that Harry had been on the side of death, and his return was significant.  But Harry hasn't been there just once.  First at Bianca's party he unleashed a fire storm that was I guess a death curse.  It was impressive but was only a fraction of what he could have done if not for his power being stolen from him.  His heart stopped, and it was Michael who saved him.  Then he purposely stopped his heart in order to get his power back, and consuming the one who stole it from him to begin with.  Next came Gard who with Marcone helped Harry cheat death.  As she said he was supposed to die in that ally.  Then there was his death in Changes which took him probably as far as anyone could go, and come back.

So from my count Harry has cheated death 4 times, with 3 of them where his heart had actually stopped.

I'm assuming the most significant was during Changes as Odin, and Rashid talked about it.  I'm wondering why it's so important.  Harry himself really didn't do anything.  It was Mab, Demon Reach, and Uriel who made it happen. 

My question is, was Harry's surviving death significant because of something he did (coming back to the land of the living), or was it because so many big names were involved and it's made everyone wonder what is so important that they would save him?

I also wonder if his other brushes with death were significant in any way. 

[Mira]

  Part of it I think, isn't so much that he cheated death, lots of vanilla mortals do that.  So called "near death" experiences are not all that uncommon, hearts stop and sometimes between C.P.R. and a zapper, hearts are started again... Brain death is another matter all together, nobody comes back from that, I doubt that Harry has ever been brain dead.  Even in Changes, between the ice cold water and Mab, his brain was preserved.  No, I think it is more about what he did while he was supposedly "dead"  that is how he defeated the Nightmare if I remember correctly, let alone what happened on his spirit walk in Ghost Story.

[K.L.O.E.]

It's been mentioned that Harry had been on the side of death, and his return was significant.  But Harry hasn't been there just once.  First at Bianca's party he unleashed a fire storm that was I guess a death curse.  It was impressive but was only a fraction of what he could have done if not for his power being stolen from him.  His heart stopped, and it was Michael who saved him.  Then he purposely stopped his heart in order to get his power back, and consuming the one who stole it from him to begin with.  Next came Gard who with Marcone helped Harry cheat death.  As she said he was supposed to die in that ally.  Then there was his death in Changes which took him probably as far as anyone could go, and come back.

So from my count Harry has cheated death 4 times, with 3 of them where his heart had actually stopped.

I'm assuming the most significant was during Changes as Odin, and Rashid talked about it.  I'm wondering why it's so important.  Harry himself really didn't do anything.  It was Mab, Demon Reach, and Uriel who made it happen. 

My question is, was Harry's surviving death significant because of something he did (coming back to the land of the living), or was it because so many big names were involved and it's made everyone wonder what is so important that they would save him?

I also wonder if his other brushes with death were significant in any way.

I've been making this argument for a while, when you make and eat your own Ghost after being dead that's pretty freaking dead. Yeah he may not have gotten out of his body and walked around for a week but he still ate himself and that other shade at Bianca's. It would have been nice if Hades had commented that he'd peeked behind death's curtain a few times before going for a walk backstage as it were or comment that not many people have eaten their own ghosts. Another possibility is having Vadderung comment to Mab that she owes him for saving Harry that one time. Basically the other deaths should matter given how important Free Will is. Harry (and Marcone) made choices to stick around, it would be nice to get some commentary on it.

[Arjan]

Death should be a learning experience, after all, or what’s the point?”

In Ghost story Harry really crossed the threshold between life and death and it was meant as a learning experience. Mark that Lea was not angry with Uriel at all. As Harry’s godmother she valued it.

[Arjan]

Also explained by Lash in Proven guilty:

“Now and always,” she replied. “I mean no insult by it, but you should know that your ability to comprehend your environment is very strongly defined by your belief in a number of illusions. Time. Truth. Love. That kind of thing. It isn’t your fault, of course—but it does impose limits upon your ability to perceive and understand some matters.” “I’m only human,” I said. “So enlighten me.” “To do so, you would have to release your hold on mortality.” I blinked and said, “I’d have to die?” She sighed. “Again, you have only a partial understanding. But in the interest of expediency, yes. You would have to cease living.”

[Mira]

Also explained by Lash in Proven guilty:

Have to go back and read the context though, to get the full understanding of what she was trying to tell him.  It helps when chapter and page are given.

[Arjan]

Have to go back and read the context though, to get the full understanding of what she was trying to tell him.  It helps when chapter and page are given.

Proven guilty chapter 15. Lash is a mortality bigot. After a few pages.

A clear foreshadowing of Changes.

[Mira]

Proven guilty chapter 15. Lash is a mortality bigot. After a few pages.

A clear foreshadowing of Changes.

I don't see it as that, Lash is explaining that humans are limited by their conception of "time." She says it is an illusion that is derived from a number of illusions, time, truth, and love.  To understand more she says he'd have to loose his hold on mortality, to die.  Harry says he doesn't want to do that.  Before this conversation, Harry has already "died" once in Grave Peril to fight the Nightmare, he is aware of ghosts etc, but even with that experience and his knowledge does he fully understand what Lash is getting at, and he doesn't want to, i.e. die...  Now in Ghost Story he learns about what a "soul" is, but I still don't think it is clear that he now understands what Lash was getting at.

[Arjan]

I don't see it as that, Lash is explaining that humans are limited by their conception of "time." She says it is an illusion that is derived from a number of illusions, time, truth, and love.  To understand more she says he'd have to loose his hold on mortality, to die.  Harry says he doesn't want to do that.  Before this conversation, Harry has already "died" once in Grave Peril to fight the Nightmare, he is aware of ghosts etc, but even with that experience and his knowledge does he fully understand what Lash is getting at, and he doesn't want to, i.e. die...  Now in Ghost Story he learns about what a "soul" is, but I still don't think it is clear that he now understands what Lash was getting at.

That interpretation is too specific. He had to die to learn. At that point in time Jim probably did not even know exactly what he would learn.

And Harry learned much more. He learned about memories and about eating them and loosing them. He leard about recalling memories with absolute clarity as he had experienced it. He learned to view the spirit world in a different light and that some beings existed in both worlds.

But Lash did not necessarily mean you would understand everything if you died, being dead gives you the possibility to learn certain things.

[Mira]

That interpretation is too specific. He had to die to learn. At that point in time Jim probably did not even know exactly what he would learn.

And Harry learned much more. He learned about memories and about eating them and loosing them. He leard about recalling memories with absolute clarity as he had experienced it. He learned to view the spirit world in a different light and that some beings existed in both worlds.

But Lash did not necessarily mean you would understand everything if you died, being dead gives you the possibility to learn certain things.

I am not sure he couldn't have regained those memories if he was alive, it was a matter of demanding them.  Also they came in the context of him trying to find out who had "murdered" him. He had no clue about his suicide..

[Arjan]

The memories of his fight with Justin and he who walks behind?

Those he could not get with that much clarity and without distortions. The memories he had access to when dead are far superior to those he could remember when alive. Maybe he can learn how to access them now.

[Mira]

The memories of his fight with Justin and he who walks behind?

Those he could not get with that much clarity and without distortions. The memories he had access to when dead are far superior to those he could remember when alive. Maybe he can learn how to access them now.

They still might be distorted, time will tell.

[b4utoo]

Well Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden real name at Birth is Dean Winchester. That should explain everything