Author Topic: Gray Council (again) roster.  (Read 2803 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Gray Council (again) roster.
« on: April 18, 2021, 01:32:54 AM »
I know we've done it before but a recent thread made me wonder about membership. According to Jim, we know of at least six members not including Harry, McCoy or Vadderung. That leaves six we hadn't met prior to Changes (who we may have met since of course). We know some are wizards and some are "key allies". Yet all that turned up wore grey cloaks and held staves (or things that looked like staves *Vadderung*)

1. Ebenezar (duh)
2. Vadderung (duh)
3. Harry (duh)
- these are locked in

4. Listens-to-Wind (Injun Joe). Arguably Ebenezar's best friend, and the only Council member apart from Eb who didn't vote that there was no Black Council at the end of Changes.
5. The Gatekeeper. Despite voting that there is no conspiracy, he is old and wise and seems to be very much against the bigger enemies. Seems like a good choice, and friendly with Eb.
6. Anastasia Luccio. Would be angry after Morgan's death and frustrated that the Council wasn't officially doing anything. Likely candidates

7. Martha Liberty. She did vote that there is no Black Council, officially. She also doesn't seem to be the type to break the rules. Yet she is friends with Eb, and the right type of candidate.
8. The Merlin. Often cited as an unexpected member, he has no reason to be a part of the Gray Council. No more than the Queen of England joining US parliament i.e. they each have their own team already. However, if he were the type to do a sort of Bruce Wayne double life, maybe this is how he would do it.
9. Carlos Ramirez. Often people think he might have joined in, but the latest books make him out to be the Merlin's man. He also probably isn't that well connected to McCoy. Yet he did notice the existence of the Black Council and named them Black Hats, so he is a maybe.These are the less likely guesses

10. Mavra. Would be an interesting choice. She is a powerful Wizard and combatant. She might be using the GC to get her own ends, but she might also resent the Black Council. And it would make life difficult for Harry having her as an ally. Not only that, she is canny and resourceful and might have excellent reasons to want to Red Court dead (which she helped achieve). However, Eb hates vampires particularly White Court. If he somehow got over his issue with her being a vampire, then perhaps they might have common ground in getting rid of the White Court.
11. Sir Baron Gentleman John Marcone. Gosh he has a lot of titles. I wonder what his end game is... ;) This would be a WILD reveal. Some of you might say "but he wasn't a Wizard yet" except he quite possibly was by this stage. Perhaps Vadderung recruited him, as he would have the connection to bring him in. However, I doubt Eb would like him any more than Harry.These are the wild guesses

12. Unknown. Possibly Lea or (better choice), the Erlking.
13. Unknown. Possibly Eldest Gruff. The problem guesses. Also - honourable mention: River Shoulders (probably too big and doesn't need a wizard staff, but still would be fun and loyal).


The issue with the final two is that Lea is clearly not in the Gray Council, as all thirteen members (including Harry, Eb and Vadderung) are at Chichen Itza in Changes, and Eb and Vadderung bring the other 10. However the problem with having Eldest Gruff as a member is he would need to be balanced out by a Winter Fae surely (for the symmetry if not the politics), and Lea seems to be his counterpart...and yet she almost certainly is not a member. The Erlking is a good foil to Vadderung and they seem to work together a bit, so I can see him being a part of the GC. He normally doesn't wield a staff but he could I am sure, and we know he has powerful magic.

You could address the above Lea/Eldest Gruff issue by saying there is more than 13 Gray Council members, which is possible. But Jim seemed to imply in his 2010 Bitten Books interview that there was only 13.
Quote
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung. :)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 01:39:09 AM by Yuillegan »
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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2021, 02:10:53 AM »
The problem with Lea is she was already with Harry at Chicken Pizza.  Harry saw a dozen figures appear in grey robes and with Harry that makes thirteen.  So Lea's out and probably Eldest Gruff with her.  Unless another figure from Winter is a member and we don't know that many high ranking members of Winter.  The Redcap and Cat Sith come to mind, but we don't know if either do big magical spells and if it was Cat Sith then the GC is down a member.  This may just be me, but neither of those characters feel right as members of the Grey Council.   
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2021, 02:38:53 AM »
Agreed, which is why my substitute for Lea was the Erlking.

I am not sure what a suitable substitute for Eldest Gruff would be. Vadderung comes to mind, for the symmetry with the Erlking.

At any rate that would leave one complete unknown.
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Offline Avernite

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2021, 07:57:59 AM »
TBH the remark  that we know 6 excluding McCoy and Vadderung means there shoudl be 4 we just don't. Hence the answer may simply be '4 characters we hadn't heard of'. I could sort of buy it being an only-namedropped wizard (like Klaus the toymaker, or the pyramid sitter, or some Warden) to fit that, but this all leaves it quite easy to just close the guessing with 4 left ;)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2021, 11:19:52 AM »
TBH the remark  that we know 6 excluding McCoy and Vadderung means there shoudl be 4 we just don't. Hence the answer may simply be '4 characters we hadn't heard of'. I could sort of buy it being an only-namedropped wizard (like Klaus the toymaker, or the pyramid sitter, or some Warden) to fit that, but this all leaves it quite easy to just close the guessing with 4 left ;)
At the time of Changes release too, we might have met those four since!
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Offline Mira

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2021, 11:47:23 AM »

Wasn't Langtree also there?  It's been a while since I read Changes.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2021, 11:55:32 AM »
No, he wasn't. It's just been a theory.
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Offline vincentric

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 03:46:05 PM »
Since the Fae are all about nit picking, wouldn't Vadderung be enough to balance Eldest Gruff? He's still technically of Winter though he's not actively acting under Mab's edict. Titania's purview didn't specifically cover the Red Court, but I doubt she'd have objected to Eldest Gruff protecting mortals from other predators than Winter as a personal project.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 07:40:34 PM »
Since the Fae are all about nit picking, wouldn't Vadderung be enough to balance Eldest Gruff? He's still technically of Winter though he's not actively acting under Mab's edict. Titania's purview didn't specifically cover the Red Court, but I doubt she'd have objected to Eldest Gruff protecting mortals from other predators than Winter as a personal project.
Vadderung was there as Vadderung, nothing to do with fae balance.
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Offline vincentric

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 10:47:24 PM »
Vadderung was there as Vadderung, nothing to do with fae balance.

Vadderung has a Winter Mantle, even if he wasn't using it at the time, that could balance Eldest Gruff who almost certainly wasn't there at Titania's order. That's if Eldest Gruff was there and if Fae balance even is necessary in this case. For that matter, Harry was already the Winter Knight so that would balance Eldest Gruff as a Summer representative pretty much.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2021, 12:08:49 AM »
Problem is though that Vadderung is a MUCH more powerful being, even as he is, than Eldest Gruff. Let alone how powerful he was at the height of his power. So I don't think it balances out. Lea is a better balance for Eldest Gruff.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2021, 01:08:52 AM »
I think some may be looking too much into the Sidhe, and balance.  They have balance within their own courts, and they balance debts, but when it comes to the things they are involved it, they haven't shown anything like that.  Look at all the things Dresden has been involved with as the Winter Knight where Summer hasn't been involved.  When Eldest Gruff was out for Dresden, Winter didn't show up to help Dresden by balancing the scales.  Skin Game was a big deal, and Summer wasn't involved.  When Harry became the Winter Knight, Summer didn't go and find a wizard to be Summer Knight to balance things.

Just because someone from Summer, or Winter, or both took part as members of the Gray Council doesn't mean that things need to be balanced. 

I personally don't think any Sidhe were involved.  Eb doesn't appear to trust very many non human/wizard types.  He can't stand Mab, and I doubt he'd risk getting Sidhe involved because every deal they make is designed to get you more tangled up with them.  Harry makes those kinds of mistakes while I doubt Eb does.  Eb also knows that getting found out is certain death, so he's only going to bring those he's willing to trust with his life, and I doubt he trusts too many non humans. 

I'm going with Lucio, Listens to Wind, Martha Liberty, and 3 other wizards that are less known but have been in the books.

*Ok maybe I see Eldest Gruff working on the Gray Council.  He's sounds super honorable, and would want to help if possible... 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 01:26:07 AM by groinkick »
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Offline BrainFireBob

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Re: Gray Council (again) roster.
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2021, 06:14:36 PM »
If Langtree is involved, kicking Harry out of the Council makes him a Disavowed asset for the Grey Council.