Corruption, hate, love and other musings

[Yuillegan]

Harry did make some statement about how Justin was better than some of the families he had been with before. It was from his perspective as a child in a memory in GS. I don't remember when, but Harry's monologued in pretty vague ways about harsh treatment at the hands of other kids in the system.

Indeed. I seem to remember about how Justin never yelled or carried on with the violence. It was just sharp and brutal, but then it was over. He never yelled when he did it. Almost like Harry is rationalizing it. None of which implies sexual abuse of course...but the rate of it in foster homes is terrible, so odds are (especially in the 80s) that something occurred. 

Yeah. But I do think Jim's kept the idea that the Fallen can't seek redemption.

Indeed, and that's interesting. Something to do with how by falling they have permanently changed themselves. Almost into a negative version. I think it was in a recent WOJ how that their grace or something converts into a negative. It makes your argument stronger in some ways, because perhaps they cannot change because they never did (being mostly outside time). But that raises questions. Why are the Fallen given no option at all the redeem themselves? It's a central tenet of many religions. What does that say about the nature of TWG or the universe? Or is it more the fact that they are no longer really the being they were before and so cannot be redeemed. They are something else.

Or they made the choice to not rebel.

Certainly that's a possibility. Uriel seems to suggest that the choice is still somewhat an option for him...the the consequences of course could be catastrophic. Nicodemus seemed to believe Uriel could still choose to smite him, to judge him. I wonder if the choice to rebel or not rebel was the Angels first real choice? Then again...perhaps if they chose to betray (somehow) the other Gods and that seems like it would have been before that...but who knows?

[K.L.O.E.]

That would certainly be interesting. I don't think Angels fully exist outside of time, at least in the Dresden Files. They seem to be surprised often enough. A full third also made a Choice, maybe the only real one they ever made, which was to Fall. Which might suggest that all other Angels never have actually made a choice at all. Then again, Ethniu calls *someone* (an angel using Butters as a sock puppet most likely) a "lapdog, coward, and a traitor". This suggests they at least made one choice, the choice to "betray" the other God entities like Ethniu.

What if the Angels exist outside of time but can't see past the fork in the universe where a "Choice" is made? Angels can see the potential outcomes of a Choice and maybe influence the Choice to be made but what will actually happen remains uncertain to them. Basically the angelic version of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle on a Universal scale. Plus it explains why they need mortal hosts to make a difference. They need a soul to make a choice. Also the angel in the Sword said "Ethniu, I only offer Vision, that you may avoid suffering" so I may be on to something.

Also Ethniu called Thorned Namshiel a "greasy little snake" plus called the angel in the Sword "you lapdog, you traitor, you coward" so she (and I'm assuming) the other Titans know the various Angels by name if not by deed and probably aren't too fond of them given those reactions. Given the way Dresden describes the God-Fight in BG as occurring in multiple timelines simultaneously maybe the Titans and Gods have Choice while the Angels get Dominion? One can interfere and the other can contain but neither is truly superior to the other?

This theory also works if we take Mab's comments about Logic being the opposite of Love/Hate. The universe is built on Logic (i.e. math and physics) but only runs with emotions as the fuel.

[Bad Alias]

Something to do with how by falling they have permanently changed themselves. Almost into a negative version. I think it was in a recent WOJ how that their grace or something converts into a negative. It makes your argument stronger in some ways, because perhaps they cannot change because they never did (being mostly outside time). But that raises questions. Why are the Fallen given no option at all the redeem themselves? It's a central tenet of many religions. What does that say about the nature of TWG or the universe? Or is it more the fact that they are no longer really the being they were before and so cannot be redeemed. They are something else.

I don't know why it would be that way other than the real world explanation I heard of them existing outside of time or TWG being unwilling or unable to forgive. I've always found fallen angel type characters that can't be redeemed sad.

Uriel seems to suggest that the choice is still somewhat an option for him...the the consequences of course could be catastrophic.

Or it's Michael's choice that would cause Uriel to fall, not Uriel's?

Nicodemus seemed to believe Uriel could still choose to smite him, to judge him.

Or Nicodemus was just taunting Uriel, believing (incorrectly) that Uriel could do nothing, but it turned out Uriel was stalling to give Butters time to get the sword?

Then again...perhaps if they chose to betray (somehow) the other Gods and that seems like it would have been before that...but who knows?

Or that choice happened at the same "time?"

I ended those sentences with question marks because, with the information we have, it's pretty close to a coin toss for me.

What if the Angels exist outside of time but can't see past the fork in the universe where a "Choice" is made?

I'm not sure how that would work, but I'm not sure how anything "outside of time" would work.