Theory on the Origin of the Starborn and the Outer Gates [BG Spoilers]

[K.L.O.E.]

Hello Everyone on the Paranet forums, I’ve been lurking for a while and normally talk Dresden with my cousin but he won’t get to BG until after the New Year and I wanted to bounce this theory off of you fine people instead!

The core of the theory is thus:

During one of the Great Celestial Wars before time and reality began when something was defeated it was cast OUT from the Never never as opposed to being cast down. This chunk of primeval being that got thrown sideways through what would become time broke the barely defined walls of reality and landed Outside. The beings of Outside were so damaged and enraged by the taint of reality in what had been their un-reality that they started to invade. Thus the victors of the Great Celestial War had to turn around and start to defend the walls of reality shortly after winning.

What defines whether or not they are a corporeal Outsider like Sharkface or an incorporeal Outsider like Nemesis is whether or not they feasted on the flesh of whatever it was or just decided to come check out this new glowing hole without stopping for a quick snack. Given that they were exposed to an unformed reality and this unknown primordial power it explains why normal magic cannot hurt them, similar to Ethniu it just isn’t matter to them. It is like us being hit by Neutrinos or something like that, it’s too small and insignificant to do anything material.

This brings us to the Starborn. Whatever was cast OUT radiated light, and given that we know physics is pretty similar in the Dresden Universe we can assume that light red shifts as well due to Universal expansion. This means that whatever light was being diffused is likely faded into universal background radiation. Something figured out that this light could damage the beings that were let IN through what would become the gates so they rearranged the stars and the planets to recompress the light to it’s original frequency as it shines on Earth every 666 years or so, this produces the Starborn.

Potential Wars (By no means a comprehensive list and I’ve left the Chinese celestial wars off as they happened on Earth and we have archeological proof that they happened. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong)
-   The Ӕsir – Vanir War of Norse Mythology
-   The Titanomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The Gigantomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The War in Heaven (Abrahamic Faiths)
-   The Battle of the Devas and Asuras (Hindu Myth)
-   Cath Maige Tuired (Celtic Mythology)

Potential Beings (By no means a comprehensive list)
-   Lucifer
-   Lucifer’s grace
-   Typhoon (or any Giant)
-   Chronus (or any Titan)
-   The many, many, many beings struck down by Vishnu or an avatar (though I do wonder if Vishnu is the god behind Odin/Beowulf/Kringle or at least his Hindu equivalent)
-   Lilith (praying this isn’t the case as it would be so freaking Lazy)
-   A world serpent or dragon (Jörmungandr, the Beast of Revelations, or something like that)

My personal pick is that when Lucifer was cast down, he was stripped of his grace and that was what got cast OUT. He was known as the Morning Star, the rebellion happened before the stars were born (to quote Mr. Sunshine: “I was fighting wars when this planet was nothing but a cloud of dust and gas”), and Starborn are born every 666 years. This theory wraps up the mystery of the Starborn, the Outer Gates, and why the fallen may work at cross-purposes to the Outsiders. I’m sure there’s something I’m missing so have at it!

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Potential Wars (By no means a comprehensive list and I’ve left the Chinese celestial wars off as they happened on Earth and we have archeological proof that they happened. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong)
-   The Ӕsir – Vanir War of Norse Mythology
-   The Titanomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The Gigantomachy (Greek Myth)
-   The War in Heaven (Abrahamic Faiths)
-   The Battle of the Devas and Asuras (Hindu Myth)
-   Cath Maige Tuired (Celtic Mythology)

Neither of those really fits.
Most god-titan wars, or gods-previous war fits replacing of Neolithic Pantheons by Indoeuropean invaders in times of Bronze/Iron Age.
It fits with Ethniu she is last of those primordial Gods that survived this multifaceted war.
We do not know her exact nature and role - but she is elemental force of Creation.

So both Titans, pagan gods and Angels fallen or not - are Creation.
And TBH they are aside of Angels not that much ancient within this creation.
I mean sure Ethniu can have like 7000 years, but compare it to Sue

So overall I think Outsiders have no mythological source other than Lovecraftian Mythos.

My personal pick is that when Lucifer was cast down, he was stripped of his grace and that was what got cast OUT. He was known as the Morning Star, the rebellion happened before the stars were born (to quote Mr. Sunshine: “I was fighting wars when this planet was nothing but a cloud of dust and gas”), and Starborn are born every 666 years. This theory wraps up the mystery of the Starborn, the Outer Gates, and why the fallen may work at cross-purposes to the Outsiders. I’m sure there’s something I’m missing so have at it!

I doubt Lucifer was stripped of grace. Grace is what makes angel angel. When Uriel gave away his grace he was not reduced to Fallen. He was reduced to mortal. His grace was tainted but his nature unchanged - even Fallen he is still Angel by nature.

[K.L.O.E.]

Neither of those really fits.
Most god-titan wars, or gods-previous war fits replacing of Neolithic Pantheons by Indoeuropean invaders in times of Bronze/Iron Age.
It fits with Ethniu she is last of those primordial Gods that survived this multifaceted war.
We do not know her exact nature and role - but she is elemental force of Creation.

So both Titans, pagan gods and Angels fallen or not - are Creation.
And TBH they are aside of Angels not that much ancient within this creation.
I mean sure Ethniu can have like 7000 years, but compare it to Sue

So overall I think Outsiders have no mythological source other than Lovecraftian Mythos.

The expansion of IndoEuropean pantheons being the inspiration for the ancient god wars makes sense so almost all of them don't work. But how can we say that they are recent arrivals to Creation when Uriel says he was fighting wars before the planet formed (so at least 5 billion years ago)? Also who's to say all of these fights over creation weren't happening back during the paleolithic, this could just be the current edition?

I doubt Lucifer was stripped of grace. Grace is what makes angel angel. When Uriel gave away his grace he was not reduced to Fallen. He was reduced to mortal. His grace was tainted but his nature unchanged - even Fallen he is still Angel by nature.

I always thought of an Angel's Grace as being similar to a Mantle, that way all if anything happens to the Angel heaven can retake the Mantle and gift it to another without fundamentally altering the way things work. Really though this depends on the nature of Angels in this Universe. Were they primeval beings who sided with TWG and took up mantles of power that were made for them, locking them into a role, or did TWG make them as expressions of his will and they are indistinct beyond that?

[Mira]

I always thought of an Angel's Grace as being similar to a Mantle, that way all if anything happens to the Angel heaven can retake the Mantle and gift it to another without fundamentally altering the way things work. Really though this depends on the nature of Angels in this Universe. Were they primeval beings who sided with TWG and took up mantles of power that were made for them, locking them into a role, or did TWG make them as expressions of his will and they are indistinct beyond that?

Not exactly, that is why it was such a big deal for Uriel to loan his to Michael.  He was trusted not mess with the jet controls beyond what he was directed to use.  In that light I'd say that no, an angel's grace isn't like a mantle.

[Griffyn612]

I side more with the idea that TWG/Creator made a bubble in the middle of nothing that became Reality, and every being in the nothing was pushed out of the way as the bubble expanded, and they want to reclaim the space. That way the physics of the never-never mirror the universal expansion theory.

But that doesn't mesh all that well with Behind saying in the Ghost Story flashback that they ruled 'here' before and will again. He could technically be referring to the space itself, but that's not a great explanation.

Maybe it *is* a combo of the Old Ones being the pre-Reality creatures, and the Outsiders are their creations, but there are also beings that were sent out after the fact.

[Bad Alias]

What's going on with Outside and Outsiders is confusing. From what I've gathered from Lovecraft fans is that Outsiders are supposed to be confusing, so maybe that's the point.

[K.L.O.E.]

I side more with the idea that TWG/Creator made a bubble in the middle of nothing that became Reality, and every being in the nothing was pushed out of the way as the bubble expanded, and they want to reclaim the space. That way the physics of the never-never mirror the universal expansion theory.

Heck, TWG didn't need to do it all by themselves. Given the "Most Stories Are True" nature of the setting most creation myths could be true in some form or another and upon ascendancy to being Top God as it were TWG nailed the rules down and started to enforce things.

Also, if that's the case where TWG nailed created a bubble of reality out of pre-Reality that leaves us with three choices for the origin of the Gates: 1) they were created by accident, 2) they were a necessary byproduct of the creation process 3) someone/thing made them from the inside. #1 is my theory above, #2 we would need some confirmation from the Mothers or something, and #3 is the Nemesis thread that's going on.

But that doesn't mesh all that well with Behind saying in the Ghost Story flashback that they ruled 'here' before and will again. He could technically be referring to the space itself, but that's not a great explanation.

Maybe it *is* a combo of the Old Ones being the pre-Reality creatures, and the Outsiders are their creations, but there are also beings that were sent out after the fact.

If space in the Dresden-verse expands like ours what used to be an annoying little bit of light could easily consume your little anti-reality bubble with those pesky laws of physics and rationality.

There are so many different ways Jim could play with the Outsider/Old Ones relationship. Are Outsiders merely Old Ones brought in? Are they Younger Old Ones? Is Outsider the blanket term and the Old Ones are the worst of the worst? Given that they leave a body full of ectoplasm behind it's almost as if they are to the Never-Never as the Never-Never is the materium.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

The expansion of IndoEuropean pantheons being the inspiration for the ancient god wars makes sense so almost all of them don't work. But how can we say that they are recent arrivals to Creation when Uriel says he was fighting wars before the planet formed (so at least 5 billion years ago)? Also who's to say all of these fights over creation weren't happening back during the paleolithic, this could just be the current edition?

It seems quite plausible that war for reality is waged without breakes.

Were they primeval beings who sided with TWG and took up mantles of power that were made for them, locking them into a role, or did TWG make them as expressions of his will and they are indistinct beyond that?

They cannot be just expressions of his will - or they would be unable to Fall.
So they have will just in limited fashion - basically like within Christian vision of angelology.

But if TWG is The Creator - then he could just create them as separate beings and assign them roles within Creation.

But that doesn't mesh all that well with Behind saying in the Ghost Story flashback that they ruled 'here' before and will again. He could technically be referring to the space itself, but that's not a great explanation.

I see option that they just want to reclaim Creation for Empty Night for sort of religious reasons - not a bad idea.
But I'm also not against Outsiders or at least Walkers - being some very ancient beings that were banished from Reality and warped by unreal beyond what even madness of Nevernever can achieve.

What's going on with Outside and Outsiders is confusing. From what I've gathered from Lovecraft fans is that Outsiders are supposed to be confusing, so maybe that's the point.

But also Lovecraftian beings are in a way very very rational - that's why they do not care about morality or pesky mud monkeys like us.
They are manifestations of Reality. Immanent to it. Wherever's life there's Shub-Niggurath, wherever's space there's Yog Soggoth.
It's Cosmos itself, Space itself that's terrifying and impossible to understand by humans, because our brains generate too much veils, and WE CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

Heck, TWG didn't need to do it all by themselves. Given the "Most Stories Are True" nature of the setting most creation myths could be true in some form or another and upon ascendancy to being Top God as it were TWG nailed the rules down and started to enforce things.

But we also know there is The Creator - which of course does not have to be TWG overseeing all creation - all multiverse. Even beings like Uriel and other archangels works in multiple universes same time - aside Skin Game when Uriel risked a lot on one card - we see just tiny glimpse of Uriel - tiny extension of his power in our universe. And he is multitasking a lot.

Also, if that's the case where TWG nailed created a bubble of reality out of pre-Reality that leaves us with three choices for the origin of the Gates: 1) they were created by accident, 2) they were a necessary byproduct of the creation process 3) someone/thing made them from the inside. #1 is my theory above, #2 we would need some confirmation from the Mothers or something, and #3 is the Nemesis thread that's going on.

Nemesis would still need a gate from Outside to reach Creation.

Given that they leave a body full of ectoplasm behind it's almost as if they are to the Never-Never as the Never-Never is the materium.

I mean most nevernever spirits would leave just ectoplasm. Faeries are sort of special - as they are part mortal and part material.
Demons, spirits and so on - need either some construct or ectoplasm body.

[K.L.O.E.]

It seems quite plausible that war for reality is waged without brakes.

If we run with that idea what is getting Obliviated are the remnants of ancient primordial earthly spirits that never learned to play nice with the new status quo instituted by TWG. This creates some distance between the Oblivion War and the Outer Gates and explains why the Archive isn't hunting nemesis and the Walkers instead.

They cannot be just expressions of his will - or they would be unable to Fall.
So they have will just in limited fashion - basically like within Christian vision of angelology.

But if TWG is The Creator - then he could just create them as separate beings and assign them roles within Creation.

Okay, so if we go with the theory that they existed independently or were created to function independently my  theory that a chunk of Lucifer got tossed outside and that made the gates is still possible.

I see option that they just want to reclaim Creation for Empty Night for sort of religious reasons - not a bad idea.
But I'm also not against Outsiders or at least Walkers - being some very ancient beings that were banished from Reality and warped by unreal beyond what even madness of Nevernever can achieve.

But also Lovecraftian beings are in a way very very rational - that's why they do not care about morality or pesky mud monkeys like us.
They are manifestations of Reality. Immanent to it. Wherever's life there's Shub-Niggurath, wherever's space there's Yog Soggoth.
It's Cosmos itself, Space itself that's terrifying and impossible to understand by humans, because our brains generate too much veils, and WE CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

I agree with you that the lesser ones may be corrupted gods but I think there's a distinct difference between the Outsiders and the Oblivion War. If there's a connection between the White Court and the Outsiders why would the Raiths take part in the Oblivion War as soldiers and why would Winter keep a mature Archive on the sidelines? She's a Lady/Queen level power with less restrictions. Unless she's the tactical nuke they keep in reserve it doesn't make much strategic sense to me.

But we also know there is The Creator - which of course does not have to be TWG overseeing all creation - all multiverse. Even beings like Uriel and other archangels works in multiple universes same time - aside Skin Game when Uriel risked a lot on one card - we see just tiny glimpse of Uriel - tiny extension of his power in our universe. And he is multitasking a lot.

Nemesis would still need a gate from Outside to reach Creation.

My question is really were the Gates made by the Creator, a traitor (possibly seduced from outside), a Remnant of Outside left inside, or were they made by accident?

All have some potential points. Making the gates by design could allow you to travel between Universes or it gives the Outsiders a point to attack so you know where to defend. A traitor/remnant could explain why HWWBesides is known as nemesis or explain the story of Adam and Eve. The accident is the one I'm leaning towards despite the most circumstantial evidence namely the starborn and the 666 year gap.

I mean most nevernever spirits would leave just ectoplasm. Faeries are sort of special - as they are part mortal and part material.
Demons, spirits and so on - need either some construct or ectoplasm body.

If something Magical is killed in the Never Never does it retain corporeal form or decay into ectoplasm?

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

If we run with that idea what is getting Obliviated are the remnants of ancient primordial earthly spirits that never learned to play nice with the new status quo instituted by TWG. This creates some distance between the Oblivion War and the Outer Gates and explains why the Archive isn't hunting nemesis and the Walkers instead.

It seems so - Oblivated beings seems to be imprisoned in some distant places of Nevernever or Earth like The Sleeper not Outside, even if they are superficialy separated. It may of course be result of some of them being to hard to remove by Outside Gates.

Okay, so if we go with the theory that they existed independently or were created to function independently my  theory that a chunk of Lucifer got tossed outside and that made the gates is still possible.

Yes. But it's contradicted by lot of elements showing that Hell and Outside are separate places, working in different way.
Fallen like Angels are extremely limited in ability to enforce power, Outsiders when summoned can wreak havoc of great magnitude.
And there's WOJ about Denarians working against Outsiders IIRC.

I think Outsiders want to destroy reality as it's anathema to it. Lucifer and other Fallen just want to take over as rulers.

I agree with you that the lesser ones may be corrupted gods but I think there's a distinct difference between the Outsiders and the Oblivion War. If there's a connection between the White Court and the Outsiders why would the Raiths take part in the Oblivion War as soldiers and why would Winter keep a mature Archive on the sidelines? She's a Lady/Queen level power with less restrictions. Unless she's the tactical nuke they keep in reserve it doesn't make much strategic sense to me.

White Court Vampires are humans+. Demon empowers them, but other than that they are mortals.
They want to rule mortal world - even if Outsiders are source of whampire creation does not mean Lara Raith wants to destroy universe.
(Neverthless White Court officially worked with Reds during war and Reds used Outsider help).

Let's not mix species or origin of power with purpose of units. Lara for all we know - just want to keep all non-vamp, not-permanently material sups out of mortal world, so mortal abandon magic and religion, and become easy pray to her brand of hedonism.

With Archive thing is - as she has not yet sire daughter - killing her could destroy Archive altogether. Her mantle. Risky business - and Archive is older than Queens.

My question is really were the Gates made by the Creator, a traitor (possibly seduced from outside), a Remnant of Outside left inside, or were they made by accident?

All things are possible, depends on specific metaphysical relation between Creator and Outside.

A traitor/remnant could explain why HWWBesides is known as nemesis or explain the story of Adam and Eve.

I mean Adam and Eve seems to be Lucifer's job.
It was meant to de-power mankind - although considering how role of free will differs in Christianity and in Dresden Files - I mean Adam and Eve in Dresden Files had to be stages somehow I think - because Creator needed more branches or smth. I mean in Christianity Angels are around to guide choices not to just protect free will.

If something Magical is killed in the Never Never does it retain corporeal form or decay into ectoplasm?

Good question. Have we ever seen something purely spiritual slain in Nevernever - some ghosts I assume.

[K.L.O.E.]

Yes. But it's contradicted by lot of elements showing that Hell and Outside are separate places, working in different way.
Fallen like Angels are extremely limited in ability to enforce power, Outsiders when summoned can wreak havoc of great magnitude.
And there's WOJ about Denarians working against Outsiders IIRC.

I think Outsiders want to destroy reality as it's anathema to it. Lucifer and other Fallen just want to take over as rulers.

I'm not saying Hell and Outside are the same, I'm saying that what made Lucifer Radiant, what made him the Morning Star is what got tossed outside when what became Satan was sent down to Hell. Think of it as throwing something in the garbage and the saran wrap coating falls on the floor instead while most of it goes in the bin. Unless the 666 in the Number of the Beast refers to something completely different. Or Alan Moore was right and Satan's number is 616 and 666 refers to the Outsiders. (Damn dimensional area codes)

White Court Vampires are humans+. Demon empowers them, but other than that they are mortals.
They want to rule mortal world - even if Outsiders are source of whampire creation does not mean Lara Raith wants to destroy universe.
(Neverthless White Court officially worked with Reds during war and Reds used Outsider help).

Let's not mix species or origin of power with purpose of units. Lara for all we know - just want to keep all non-vamp, not-permanently material sups out of mortal world, so mortal abandon magic and religion, and become easy pray to her brand of hedonism.

That seems like a reasonable and in character motivation for Lara taking part in the Oblivion War. We've also seen the Whites using Outsider help during the duel in the caves so they aren't opposed to asking for some reality bending help.

With Archive thing is - as she has not yet sire daughter - killing her could destroy Archive altogether. Her mantle. Risky business - and Archive is older than Queens.

Ivy sure, but past Archive's are a different matter entirely. I imagine Rashid would make a joke about his young friend eventually pitching in or something.

All things are possible, depends on specific metaphysical relation between Creator and Outside.

Indeed. I doubt we'll ever actually get an answer. Fun to speculate though!

I mean Adam and Eve seems to be Lucifer's job.
It was meant to de-power mankind - although considering how role of free will differs in Christianity and in Dresden Files - I mean Adam and Eve in Dresden Files had to be stages somehow I think - because Creator needed more branches or smth. I mean in Christianity Angels are around to guide choices not to just protect free will.

Did it depower or empower us? If we were meant to be magical god like things that acted in harmony with creation maybe it did take away our power and Talents are all that's left. If knowledge and free will were our gifts then the snake set us free. I totally agree about the story in the bible not agreeing with the message on Free Will in the Dresden Files.

Good question. Have we ever seen something purely spiritual slain in Nevernever - some ghosts I assume.

Maybe in Ghost Story?

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I'm not saying Hell and Outside are the same, I'm saying that what made Lucifer Radiant, what made him the Morning Star is what got tossed outside when what became Satan was sent down to Hell. Think of it as throwing something in the garbage and the saran wrap coating falls on the floor instead while most of it goes in the bin. Unless the 666 in the Number of the Beast refers to something completely different. Or Alan Moore was right and Satan's number is 616 and 666 refers to the Outsiders. (Damn dimensional area codes)

If anything I'd expect to Lucifer somehow be responsible of Starborn's creation, maybe even as part of his pre-Fall job.
Sort of like mechanism to fend of any Outsider small but fierce guys running around mortals, where angel cannot reach without exploding Milky Way.

Maybe he's nicknamed Lucifer (as I doubt Latin name is his original) because of this STAR LIGHT he brings, once every few centuries.

That seems like a reasonable and in character motivation for Lara taking part in the Oblivion War. We've also seen the Whites using Outsider help during the duel in the caves so they aren't opposed to asking for some reality bending help.

Sure. Whites lacks one agenda - they are humans with free will after all.
Lara and Malvora clearly were on opposed sites of whole reality-saving thing.

Ivy sure, but past Archive's are a different matter entirely. I imagine Rashid would make a joke about his young friend eventually pitching in or something.

If Archive is sworn to neutrality - it could mean she was not used because she simply cannot be used - except very specific circumstances.

Indeed. I doubt we'll ever actually get an answer. Fun to speculate though!

I'm quite sure we've gonna get the answer. Jim is not a guy that abstain from using his Chekhov's Guns well.

Did it depower or empower us? If we were meant to be magical god like things that acted in harmony with creation maybe it did take away our power and Talents are all that's left. If knowledge and free will were our gifts then the snake set us free. I totally agree about the story in the bible not agreeing with the message on Free Will in the Dresden Files.

I mean this is quite complex area. Within theology of course Adam and Eve had free will (that's why they could fall), and without fall this will would just aligned freely with God. Also knowledge of evil is treated in many ways as anti-knowledge - as evil is sort of distortion of being rather than real part of ...well reality. In a way you can know it only by being tainted by it.

But that within theology.
I'm more curious about God perspective in all this mess in DF, and purpose of mankind and free will overall.

If it's somehow simmilar to Christian beliefs then free will was rather not designed as a way to fend off outsiders, but maybe used later. Maybe it was Fall that ripped Reality new one, and all the rest of all possible histories is just one massive damage control.

Maybe in Ghost Story?

Michael slain ghost in "Grave Peril" I'm sure

[K.L.O.E.]

If anything I'd expect to Lucifer somehow be responsible of Starborn's creation, maybe even as part of his pre-Fall job.
Sort of like mechanism to fend of any Outsider small but fierce guys running around mortals, where angel cannot reach without exploding Milky Way.

Maybe he's nicknamed Lucifer (as I doubt Latin name is his original) because of this STAR LIGHT he brings, once every few centuries.

He was the morning star, the light before the dawn so that may be entirely plausible. Starborn could function as an immune system against the outsiders.

Sure. Whites lacks one agenda - they are humans with free will after all.
Lara and Malvora clearly were on opposed sites of whole reality-saving thing.

Agreed!

If Archive is sworn to neutrality - it could mean she was not used because she simply cannot be used - except very specific circumstances.

That's why I think the Oblivion War and the Archive are separate from the Outsiders and their connection to the fae courts. Ivy's role is to run around turning dinosaur gods into ghosts, so she's neutral so Summer, Winter, and everyone else let her do her thing in the shadows.

I'm quite sure we've gonna get the answer. Jim is not a guy that abstain from using his Chekhov's Guns well.

I hope so? It's just a complicated question that may offend some readers so he may stay away.

I mean this is quite complex area. Within theology of course Adam and Eve had free will (that's why they could fall), and without fall this will would just aligned freely with God. Also knowledge of evil is treated in many ways as anti-knowledge - as evil is sort of distortion of being rather than real part of ...well reality. In a way you can know it only by being tainted by it.

But that within theology.
I'm more curious about God perspective in all this mess in DF, and purpose of mankind and free will overall.

If it's somehow simmilar to Christian beliefs then free will was rather not designed as a way to fend off outsiders, but maybe used later. Maybe it was Fall that ripped Reality new one, and all the rest of all possible histories is just one massive damage control.

I think it was the fall of Lucifer that broke reality, they even mention in Skin Game how devastating a Fall can be. But yeah, free will in the Dresden Files is contradictory to say the least.

Michael slain ghost in "Grave Peril" I'm sure

I thought they were in the Hospital, not the NeverNever unless Harry opened a way.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

That's why I think the Oblivion War and the Archive are separate from the Outsiders and their connection to the fae courts. Ivy's role is to run around turning dinosaur gods into ghosts, so she's neutral so Summer, Winter, and everyone else let her do her thing in the shadows.

But then Thomas implies - of course he is young and can speak bollocks - that Oblivionites conspired to destroy Faerie. Considering what we know about Fae role in protecting reality this is either: Thomas telling some Venatori urban legends, or sign Whampires who are imporant part of Oblivionites could have different priorities. At least White King in XV century.

I hope so? It's just a complicated question that may offend some readers so he may stay away.

Look you cannot just promise Apocalypse and then pretend all this Abrahamic vs Pagan vs Fae vs whatever thing does not matters for it.
And I think that reactions of Ethniu to various supernaturals shows us she had complicated history - more even with Angels than with Mab, and this whole thing will matter for a future books.

While as a Christian I have special dose of sentiment to DF for Michael Carpenter I'm not expecting mad urban fantasy novels to keep proper thomist metaphysics. And I hope neither are Asatru readers gonna be angry if Odin and his generation of gods shall turn into just Grigori Angels sucking at their jobs

I think it was the fall of Lucifer that broke reality, they even mention in Skin Game how devastating a Fall can be. But yeah, free will in the Dresden Files is contradictory to say the least.

It may be. Depends what overall story of Creation we shall get.

I thought they were in the Hospital, not the NeverNever unless Harry opened a way.

They moved to Nevernever as spirit managed to get enough grip it retreated to it's ghost dimension in NN while still killing babies in Hospital.
That's why Lea was able to catch them there.