Mavra and the Black Court

[Yuillegan]

WAG time!

I think most would agree that there as at least an implied connection between the Black Court of Vampires and the Outsiders.

They are often described as being tainted by something inhuman, unworldy and evil. Something that robs them of all choice.

Renfields are particularly interesting - their will is some brutally and completely overridden that the person they were before is essentially dead. They are empowered by that same fell strength that the Black Court runs off (though obviously a lot less than a BCV). They are described as being bound by a vile collar of dark energy (a reflection of the magic that enslaves them), their muscles are bulging with blackened veins, but the worst is the eyes - which appear as though they have been clawed out and their is a hideous cold darkness, vast and terrible instead. A profound Nothing. This is their description when Harry views one with his Sight. Curiously, neither the OG Merlin nor any Saint on record who tried to remove the spell was able. This suggests to me that once their minds/psyches have been so dominated so violently by the BCV, they are effectively dead. There is nothing left of the original person. Just a meat suit.

The Renfields, and vampire thralls, are an example of how the White Council's Laws can be perverted and used against them. The White Council cannot kill (with magic) mortal beings, even Renfields it seems, making them effective tools and meat shields. It was problems like this that required the creation of the position of the Blackstaff.

A few inconsistencies, or at least issues, exist though. In Blood Rites, Harry believes that the Black Court have been around since the dawn of human civilization and Ebenezar says that Dracula (son of Drakul) went to join the Black Court as a sort of teenage rebellion. However in WOJ we have a quote saying that Dracula, in an effort to impress his father (Drakul), wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire - but it didn't work out so well. Finally, OG Merlin supposedly tried to remove or fix the Renfield curse/enthrallment. However, the OG Merlin would have existed about a thousand years before Dracula (who would have existed about 600 years before the Dresden Files).

So which is true? As the WOJ came after Blood Rites, most have taken that to mean Jim has retconned/rethought his original idea of the Black Court. Of course it could be a genuine mistake too, but perhaps the discrepancy was intentional (it would hardly be the first...). An easy solution to the Merlin issue is that he is a Time Traveler. But then, is Dracula? Did he go back to the dawn of humanity to become the first Black Court Vampire?

Also - Mavra is about 600 years old according to WOJ, and the name Mavra comes from a Russian opera about a love affair. Mavra is the pseudonym of a man (Vassili) pretending to be a servant. Is there a connection between Mavra and Russia? Well for one, Simon Pietrovich was Russian and the White Council's expert on Vampires. He is also the number one suspect for Cowl currently (as rated by these boards). It would fit - Jim loves those 80s references, the whole Russian vs America thing is very much a part of pop culture (and was heavily so in the 80s). Also, if Mavra is 600 years old she definitely existed during Dracula's reign. Which either makes her one of the oldest and strongest Black Court Vampires, but might also mean she was someone from history. Perhaps Dracula's sister/wife/mother etc.

I have also speculated in the past to the connection between Drakul and the Outsiders - which would make more sense if the Black Court were heavily connected to the Outsiders as well.

[Kindler]

I'd like to point out that there's a stark line between Dracula and Drakul in the DV: Drakul is Vlad's father, and Vlad became Dracula. Not saying anyone got it wrong, just pointing out the difference between them.

Further, it's worth mentioning that Drakul was "something utterly inhuman that became trapped in human form," per WOJ. That could've happened at any time in the past several millennia, and Vlad could've been running around for decades or centuries before leading Wallachia. Jim doesn't plainly state the order of events; it's entirely possible that the Black Court predates Drakul, and later his son, taking the throne of Wallachia. Therefore, I'd say that the timeline (OG Merlin vs. Renfields, for example) isn't quite as clear as it seems, and may not necessarily be a contradiction.

Dresden's personal musings are kinda whatever; he can be totally wrong. Bob's points likely aren't... but I think Etienne the Enchanter was only around during the Middle Ages (quite a long time after the Fall of Rome and Merlin's time) before getting burned at the stake, and I'm not sure Bob existed as a real, discrete entity before Etienne bound him to the Skull. In other words, Bob's info is secondhand, and not even contemporary to Merlin's time. So I'm not sure how different Bob's info on OG Merlin is from the myths that have surrounded him in the intervening centuries.

Finally, Merlin was able to pierce time itself, so I don't think the rules necessarily apply to him. The Black Court really could have been formed in the fifteenth century, and Merlin really could have still combated Renfields and tried to fix them centuries after his own death.

[Bad Alias]

It's unclear where Bob came from. The story was pretty clear that Etienne the Enchanter enchanted the skull and Bob was a creature of the Nevernever. Then Jim stated that Bob came about exactly as Bonnie did and that the skull Bob lived in was Etienne's with a strong implication that it was his skull as in previously housed his brain before Bob was born and thus killed Etienne.

[toodeep]

Hmmm, the idea that the skull is actually Etienne's is interesting, but I thought there was a WoJ that it was just a skull that Etienne picked up somewhere.  It is interesting to think that if it was Etienne's then there might be an inherent magic to it that would make it safe for Bob, the same way that even without any magic spell Harry's grave protected his spirit.  But that isn't supported by the fact that Harry copied the skull's magic onto a piece of wood that certainly didn't have any inherent magical connection to Bonnie and it worked as a vessel for her, so I would say that Bob isn't depending on any inherent connection to the skull for protection.

I think Bob burst forth from whatever source he came from (killing it) and wandered the Never Never long enough to become involved in the winter court and learn the "big secret" from Mab.  Then he hooked up with Entienne.  The question this has always raised for me is making me question the nature of intellect spirits compared to what Bob and Harry seem to believe.  Harry thinks Bob doesn't have free will and essentially chooses to follow the owner of the skull, but we know there are spells on the skull.  What if Bob really only obeys the owner of the skull because the spells on the skull he inhabits force him to?  That seems fair since he made the deal with Entienne, but since Harry copied the skull to make Bonnie's I wonder if he has bound her similarly without meaning to.

I also wonder if Bob's belief that he has no understanding of good/evil is shaped by the fact that he killed his parent upon birth.  If you did that as your very first act, you might repress your understanding of good and evil too, considering you might be born considering yourself a murderer if you accept it.

I think it is clear from the parallels that Athena is the divine version of an intellect spirit, and she is capable of free thought and doesn't depend on others like Bob does with Harry.  I think serving mortals has been Bob's way of not having to cope with ethical decisions, and that the idea that all intellect spirits are innately amoral may be incorrect since we are basing it off a data point of 1.

[Bad Alias]

I thought there was a WoJ that it was just a skull that Etienne picked up somewhere.

There was. I think Bob's history has a few conflicting data points. The confusion may just be my own based on Etienne being from "France" in the "Middle Ages," and Bob being a thousand years old.

"Evil" Bob appears to be able to serve whomever he chooses.

Notes:

Bob doesn’t know!  Etienne the Enchanter picked it up on the cheap, back in medieval France, and skulls weren’t exactly uncommon.  Etienne himself probably had it for the reason that so many writers and sages had skulls hanging around–to make their office look cooler.
Etienne, though, is the one who originally laid out the enchantment on the skull to enable it to be a little home-away-from-home for Bob, and he’s been passed down, wizard-to-wizard, ever since.

About Bob:
He’s a thousand year old being, he’s not in a hurry

Why does Bob have to obey whoever owns his skull? Is it because of the enchantments on the skull, or is it just that all spiritual entities must obey whoever controls their sanctum?
It’s the bargain Bob made to be who he is, basically. The skull is essentially his contract–shelter in exchange for service.

http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-friends/

He’s innocent (more or less) of the whole question of good and evil.  His existance is focused on questions and answers, upon simply acquiring the knowledge, and that’s that.
Which is not to say that he could never become anything more.  Especially if he hangs around with mortals a lot.  Mortals, in their own possession of free will, have a tendancy to influence beings who don’t have it, in one way or another.  I suppose it’s entirely possible, for example, that too much association with mortals are what changed Aurora, former Summer Lady, and gave her a determination to destroy the natural order in an effort to change its very nature–for the better, true, but it would never even have occurred to any of the other Queens, Mothers or Lady that such a thing might be, until it had already happened.  It isn’t in their nature.

But perhaps I’ve said too much.  I’ll shut up now.

http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-and-stuff-i-didnt-put-into-other-categories/

Well…. there /was/ no pre-skull Bob. The only question is whose skull he was in originally, before he got his own.

http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/twitter-tidbits/

[Kindler]

The Middle Ages is usually dated from 476 AD --> 1492. From the Fall of Rome to Columbus. Most of the stuff we traditionally associate with the Middle Ages/Medieval Period is really the High Middle Ages, which gave us the Crusades that are actually fun to read about, and which ended pretty much at the Magna Carta in 1215.

[Avernite]

The Middle Ages is usually dated from 476 AD --> 1492. From the Fall of Rome to Columbus. Most of the stuff we traditionally associate with the Middle Ages/Medieval Period is really the High Middle Ages, which gave us the Crusades that are actually fun to read about, and which ended pretty much at the Magna Carta in 1215.

Or at 4th Lateran, or the Mongol invasion, or... but yes

So a 1000 year old Bob from medieval France is very fitting. Even if France around the year 1000 wasn't much (with a certain Duke of Normandy going so far as to conquer his own Kingdom by himself, with the aid of some French vassals but not the 'King' of France).

[Bad Alias]

There is also this: "Etienne the Enchanter: Bob's first owner. He binds Bob's spirit to a random human skull somewhere in late 14th to mid-15th century France. Bob has been passed down, wizard-to-wizard, ever since." It has a footnote to a dead link with a WoJ on the old forum here.

And this from the timeline: "LATE 14th CENTURY/MID-15th CENTURY, FRANCE: Bob’s spirit is bound to a random skull by a fellow called Etienne the Enchanter."

[Kindler]

Or at 4th Lateran, or the Mongol invasion, or... but yes

Yep. Early thirteenth century was a couple of banner decades for a while.

[Kindler]

There is also this: "Etienne the Enchanter: Bob's first owner. He binds Bob's spirit to a random human skull somewhere in late 14th to mid-15th century France. Bob has been passed down, wizard-to-wizard, ever since." It has a footnote to a dead link with a WoJ on the old forum here.

And this from the timeline: "LATE 14th CENTURY/MID-15th CENTURY, FRANCE: Bob’s spirit is bound to a random skull by a fellow called Etienne the Enchanter."

Well, if we're talking 1450ish, then that would fit almost exactly with Vlad Tepes's Second reign (the famous one with all of the giant toothpicks, 1456-1462). That's still technically the Middle Ages, but we're talking Late Middle Ages, and that's hardly any fun at all. Only Da Vinci and Ottomans, plus a bunch of plagues and other such nonsense. YAWN.

But... that's kinda interesting. It's possible that Drakul or Vlad were important to Bob uncovering how to kill immortals, which is what drove him to seek refuge with Etienne in the first place.

So, I'd say that Bob did exist as a discrete entity before he was bound to his Skull, for up to 300-400 years before his deal with Etienne.

[Bad Alias]

It could be that Bob was born somewhere around the year 1000, thus he is a "thousand year old being." I always assume JB is rounding to at least the nearest century when he says someone is x centuries old. He roams the world and/or Nevernever free of the enchanted skull until Etienne binds him to the skull "somewhere in late 14th to mid-15th century."

I figure it probably went down something like this. Bob was birthed or delivered by Etienne around 1000 years ago. Then somewhere in late 14th to mid-15th century Mab discovers that Bob discovered that immortals become vulnerable on certain conjunctions, and then Mab shares her displeasure of this state of affairs with Bob (probably in an unsuccessful attempt to kill him), so Bob returns to Etienne for a sanctum in the real world where he can avoid Mab's reach.

[g33k]

I like most of your analysis, but this:

...  Mab shares her displeasure of this state of affairs with Bob (probably in an unsuccessful attempt to kill him) ...

seems unlikely.  The Queen of Winter being unsuccessful in killing some piddly spirit?

How about that Bob finds out the secret, realizes what a "destroy me NOW" target he has become (as soon as any powerful immortal finds out what he knows)... so he goes and solicits a mortal-realm sanctum and trades his freedom to get it.

[aikidoka]

and the name Mavra comes from a Russian opera about a love affair.

Mavra is also Greek for black.

[Bad Alias]

seems unlikely.  The Queen of Winter being unsuccessful in killing some piddly spirit?

I don't think that she would take care of it personally. The Summer Queen tried to kill Harry, repeatedly, and failed. See Small Favor. And the reason I think Mab found out is that Bob is hiding from Mab, not immortals.

[Snark Knight]

I don't think that she would take care of it personally. The Summer Queen tried to kill Harry, repeatedly, and failed. See Small Favor. And the reason I think Mab found out is that Bob is hiding from Mab, not immortals.

If the point is to get rid of him because of what he knows, Mab can't very well risk her assassin finding out the secret while going after him by delegating the hit. I read it that she personally took a convincingly scary-looking swat at him to motivate his silence, without actually meaning to take him off the board permanently in case he was useful later.