Vadderung former Gatekeeper.

[Con]

First theirs the obvious appearence, both the Gatekeeper and Vadderung have one eye of what appears to be steal, and according to most myths about Odin, he sacrificed his eye for knowledge of magic.

Bear with me. Vadderung clearly knows about the Island and it's purpose, he outright states so himself.

"What I mean" he said "is that I know about your island. I know where it came from. I know what it does. I know what's beneath it."

Then Vadderung shows his extensive knowledge of the island and time in relation to magic, which seems perfectly in line with knowledge a Gatekeeper has.

"Idiots" he breathed. "Even is they could defeat the banefire..."
"Wait" I said "Banefire"
"The fail-safe" Vadderung said. "The fire the island showed you"
....
"It is the only way" Vadderung said. "If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well..."
....
"Not bad" Vadderung said "The end"
....
"The island cannot accept it as a possibility" Vadderung said absently.

All of this suggests a tremendous amount of knowledge by Vadderung regarding the Island.Next Vadderung goes into a detailed discussion in regards to time, space and magic.

Vadderung waved a hand. "Nonesense. There are laws that govern the progression of time in relation to space, like everything else."
"Meaning what?"
"Meaning that the echoes caused by temporal event are proportionately greater than the span of time that was bridged" he said "Had the attack been launched from a century ago or hence, the echoes of it would have begun far, far in advance of the event--- centuries ago. These echoes have appeared only within the past few days. I would guess roughly that the attack must originate only hours from the actual, real time occurance"

Now first their is a description of what limits the Gatekeepers, Foresight/Hindsight in Proven Guilty thats relevant.

"Because if he significantly altered what happened with his knowledge of the future it could cause all sorts of temporal instabilities. It could cause new parallel realities to split off from the point of alterations he couldn't predict or kind of backlash into his consciousness and drive him insane"
....
"But if your car never got stolen" Bob said "then how did he come to know to come back and warn you?"
I frowned
"That's paradox and it can have all kinds of nasty backlash. Theory hold that it could even destroy our reality if it happened in a weak enough spot."
.....
"If it's done subtly enough, indirectly enough you can get all kinds of things changed. Like for example, he tells you that your car is going to be stolen. So you move it to a parking garage, where instead of getting stolen by the junkie who was going to shoot you and tale the car on the street, you get jacked by a professional who takes the car without hurting you- because by slightly altering the fate of the car, he indirectly alters yours"

Then we get the explanation that counters Bobs explanation of the problem of Paradox.

"Paradox is an overrated threat. There is... a quality similar to inertia at work, Once an event has occured, there is an extremely strong tendency for that event to occur. The larger, more significant or more energetic the event, the more it tends to remain as it originally happened, despite any interference."
I frowned. "There's... a law of the conservation of history?"
Vadderung grinned. "I've never heard it phrased quite like that, but it's accurate enough. In any event overcoming that inertia require's tremendous energy, will and a measure of simple luck. If one wishes to alter the course of history, it's a far simpler matter to attempt to shape the future."
.....
" A twinned universe" Vadderung said "A new parallel reality, identical except for that event. One in which you never existed and one in which you failed to kill your grandfather"
.....
"Meddling with time is an irrationally, outrageously, catastrophically, dangerous and costly business. I encourage you to avoid it at all costs."
.....
"Because the energy requirements are astronomical" he said "Bridging a temporal gap of any length is something utterly beyond the reach of any mortal practitioner alone. Doing such a thing and then trying to project the spell over a distance as well? The difficulty of it would be prohibitive. And do not forget how much water surrounds the island, which will tend to mitigate any energy sent toward it--- that's one reason the Well was built there."

Plus a little subtle hint at foresight/hindsight

"Perhaps" he murmured "you already have"

Theirs also myths about Odin, hanging himself for more knowledge or power. which reflects Vadderungs statement to Harry about death.

"Fewer try it then you might think"
....
"Nothing that significant just happens, Dresden"
.....(later on in the chapter)
"Wizard...you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It has opened doors and paths that you do not yet know exist, and attracted the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken note of your insignificance"
"Meaning what?" I asked
There was no humour at all in his face. "Meaning that now more than ever, you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting"

Okay so with all this knowledge about Old Ones, and Outsiders and the Island, plus the similarities in appearence, and mystique of knowledge theirs also another fact that contributes to the theory that Vadderung used to be the Gatekeeper.

We know from his reveal that Vadderung is Kringle.

"Many, many mantles are worn--or discarded-- on Halloween night, wizard."
...
I saw Vadderung's wolfish features lurking inside Kringle's

So we know mantles can be discarded.

Finally the Outer Gates need an army to combat the Outsiders, before it was Winter it would make sense that it would be Einherjaar, Warriors dying in battle over thousands of years, would create a large army to which battle could be joined against the Outsiders at the Gates.

[Yuillegan]

I have wondered this before. Not so much that Vadderung was Gatekeeper (which does makes sense) but that Vadderung used to have the Eye that the Gatekeeper uses.

There are a few myths about characters losing Eyes. In the Greco-Roman myths Perseus on his way to killing the Gorgons and Medusa encounters "the Grey Ladies", three old woman with one tooth and one eye between them. From that eye, they can see the whole world which Perseus uses to find the location of the Gorgons. Perhaps those three woman are related to or part of the Fates/Mothers? One myth that stands out is the God of the Air and Kings Horus, son of Osiris (God of the Underworld) losing his Eye in battle against the God of the Desert and Chaos, Set (or Seth - depending on your spelling). Could Odin have been Horus? It wouldn't surprise me if Jim ties a few myths together.

A while back there was a few theories on the former Guardians of the Outer Gates. I think the prevailing theory was that Angels were the original Guardians and then it was a few other mythologies (including the Greco-Roman) and then the Norse. What was never really settled is whether the binary system of the fae courts existed i.e. whether it was for example the Jotuns being the Winter Court and the Aesir being the Summer Court OR whether there was no binary split and the Jotuns are the Outsiders and the Aesir were the Fae.

There were excellent arguments both ways - not helped by more than a few contradictions in the text and WOJ. For instance Jim discusses how the Courts were split on purpose and that the Fae were the creation of beings who were losing influence in the world. This would tend to support the idea that there was no split until the Fae.

But there is also in the text how some Fae like the Leanansidhe discuss the how the Formor are cousins of the Jotun. And how the Formor are related to the Fae. Which would tend to suggest that the Jotuns were not Outsiders. Unless you go in for my theory that the Formor have the blood of the outsiders in them, hence being cousins of the Jotun.

But there are further ideas that Mab, Mother Winter and the Winter Court have strong similarities to the Jotuns. It is a complex topic. I do suspect in one form or another something akin to the Mother's has always existed to defend reality (a la the Fates/Norns etc.) But what beings were from them is very very difficult to guess.

I am not saying he was officially the Gatekeeper - though I think it is more likely than not that he once possessed that Eye. And I do believe you are right - I think that he did die for knowledge. Interestingly historians tend to agree that the story of Odin being hung on the tree and dying and being reborn comes after the Christians faith came to Scandinavia and as many cultures did (especially the Vikings) they adopted elements of the Christian faith to connect it to their own. I think this could be significant in the Dresden Files.  I personally am of the opinion that Odin was a mortal wizard who completed a rite of ascension to become a God. But after a while he realised he had to forfeit some of his power to maintain his influence in the world - which likely corresponds to waning of the Norse gods influence and the retreat of the Jotuns and the Norse Gods losing their way. I suspect he had the option to bow out of mortal affairs but chose not to.

Vadderung is a very interesting character. We have never actually confirmed him as Odin, though it is heavily implied and guessed at by Harry. We know he taught the original Merlin - which means he likely influenced the formation of the White Council. We know he has had many identities over the centuries, and he is going by Vadderung this time. And when he gets involved, he goes all in, but that normally means things are about to get really bad. We know he is stockpiling for the apocalypse/Ragnarok and that his children have gone astray. We also know that there is an implied fued between Mab and him and that he wears his Kringle mask in order to keep the peace. We also know that Mab assumed her duties in 1066 - the year of the last great Viking raid, commonly thought of the year the Viking age came to an end. We also know during that time a Starborn was running around, the old Mother Summer died or abdicated, the old Summer Queen took her place, the Summer Lady stepped up to being Summer Queen, and the Winter Queen died, causing Mab to step up. It is speculated this could also have been when the Courts were split. An interesting time for Vadderung. We also know that Uriel considers Vadderung to be in a similar line of work - which is interesting for two reasons. Uriel both preserves and nurtures freedom of choice, we also know that he is Heaven's wetworks man and chief spook. So which field is Vadderung in? My money is on both - especially considering more than once we have had significance around assassins and spooks. So I wonder what Vadderung does in that area? We definitely know he is the protecting freedom game. And of course he is a psychopomp - he guides the souls of the dead to the afterlife. I think a lot of reveals about Vadderung will open up the world of the Dresden Files in a big way.

[Con]

A while back there was a few theories on the former Guardians of the Outer Gates. I think the prevailing theory was that Angels were the original Guardians and then it was a few other mythologies (including the Greco-Roman) and then the Norse.

Agreed

There were excellent arguments both ways - not helped by more than a few contradictions in the text and WOJ. For instance Jim discusses how the Courts were split on purpose and that the Fae were the creation of beings who were losing influence in the world. This would tend to support the idea that there was no split until the Fae.

But there is also in the text how some Fae like the Leanansidhe discuss the how the Formor are cousins of the Jotun. And how the Formor are related to the Fae. Which would tend to suggest that the Jotuns were not Outsiders. Unless you go in for my theory that the Formor have the blood of the outsiders in them, hence being cousins of the Jotun.

But there are further ideas that Mab, Mother Winter and the Winter Court have strong similarities to the Jotuns. It is a complex topic. I do suspect in one form or another something akin to the Mother's has always existed to defend reality (a la the Fates/Norns etc.) But what beings were from them is very very difficult to guess.

My theory is that most nature Gods, Deities. Powerful Spirits and Creatures became Fae in order to survive. While the defeated Pantheons of several religions banded together to create the Fomor. WHich is backed up by Lea's description and explanation of them, as well as Bob's

I personally am of the opinion that Odin was a mortal wizard who completed a rite of ascension to become a God. But after a while he realised he had to forfeit some of his power to maintain his influence in the world - which likely corresponds to waning of the Norse gods influence and the retreat of the Jotuns and the Norse Gods losing their way. I suspect he had the option to bow out of mortal affairs but chose not to.

A hundred percent agreed, I too have the theory that Vadderung used to be a Wizard that ascended, which actually fits with a lot of Viking Lore. Viking's believed Odin traveled aorund the world as a wizened old user of witchcraft and magic.

Although theirs also the theory that he is actually, Thor upgraded which is supported by his name Being Donar Vadderung or Thunder Younger Father

Vadderung is a very interesting character. We have never actually confirmed him as Odin, though it is heavily implied and guessed at by Harry. We know he taught the original Merlin - which means he likely influenced the formation of the White Council. We know he has had many identities over the centuries, and he is going by Vadderung this time. And when he gets involved, he goes all in, but that normally means things are about to get really bad. We know he is stockpiling for the apocalypse/Ragnarok and that his children have gone astray. We also know that there is an implied fued between Mab and him and that he wears his Kringle mask in order to keep the peace. We also know that Mab assumed her duties in 1066 - the year of the last great Viking raid, commonly thought of the year the Viking age came to an end. We also know during that time a Starborn was running around, the old Mother Summer died or abdicated, the old Summer Queen took her place, the Summer Lady stepped up to being Summer Queen, and the Winter Queen died, causing Mab to step up. It is speculated this could also have been when the Courts were split. An interesting time for Vadderung. We also know that Uriel considers Vadderung to be in a similar line of work - which is interesting for two reasons. Uriel both preserves and nurtures freedom of choice, we also know that he is Heaven's wetworks man and chief spook. So which field is Vadderung in? My money is on both - especially considering more than once we have had significance around assassins and spooks. So I wonder what Vadderung does in that area? We definitely know he is the protecting freedom game. And of course he is a psychopomp - he guides the souls of the dead to the afterlife. I think a lot of reveals about Vadderung will open up the world of the Dresden Files in a big way.

My theory is Vadderung takes more direct action than Uriel and provides direct muscle and advice for the fight, while Uriel is restricted and bound to act as a balance to whatever evil does. Vadderung has more freedom to act because he's Mortal, and finds the idea of it awesome as per WOJ.

[groinkick]

Dang nice job getting all that information...  Lot of work.

[Yuillegan]

Not sure that all of them became Fae, but I certainly think most of the Gods and Spirits helped create/empower them for varying reasons. I have long thought that the purpose of the polytheistic gods (in the DV) is to protect and guide humanity against the monsters. Why monsters and demons exist is another thing but it wouldn't surprise me if the Outsiders have something to do with it.

The Vadderung = former wizard does make a lot of sense. I certainly think he was a wizard before even the predecessors to the White Council, when magic allowed you a lot more leeway.

I have never heard the theory he is Thor upgraded...but it sort of makes sense with his name...I don't know if it fits the series well though. It could be that JB just liked the name enough to ignore some of it's subtleties. Who knows though? It always takes me back to that WOJ that the Being never changes, just how we perceive them. Part of the Free Will thing I'd guess.

My theory is Vadderung takes more direct action than Uriel and provides direct muscle and advice for the fight, while Uriel is restricted and bound to act as a balance to whatever evil does. Vadderung has more freedom to act because he's Mortal, and finds the idea of it awesome as per WOJ.

Yeah I think that is pretty right. I suspect that it is largely to do with the scope of their activities. Vadderung likes to be very hands on, at the micro level (relative to Uriel). Whereas Uriel is focussed on a multi-universe scale conflict. He has to look at the bigger picture, even if he would like not to. In fact he actually has been stepping in a lot more as the series goes on. So much for being the quiet one, we have literally never had any of the others around (that we know of). Minor hint of Raphael and a mention of Michael. Curious.

[Bad Alias]

We know he taught the original Merlin.

How do we know that? I recall reasoning that there were strong connections between Merlin and Odin, but I've been away from the boards for so long that I'm no longer conversant in a lot of the out of book information and theories.

I do recall that I've had the idea that Odin/Vadderung may be an ancestor of Harry's and that's why he was so involved in Chichen Itza. (What I remember about why I thought that):

(click to show/hide)

The theory that Harry is descended from the Merlin is based on Ebeneezer's journals dating back to the original Merlin and the idea that apprentices are often taught by family members. From there and the idea that Merlin was taught by Odin, it isn't a large leap that Merlin was descended from Odin.

[Con]

Ebenezar outright says it after the battle of Chitchen Itza

Ebenezar nodded "He taught Merlin you know. The original Merlin

[Yuillegan]

Bad Alias, the theory could still be true that Odin, Merlin and Harry are related (assuming Merlin isn't TT Harry or the Harry isn't Odin etc.) I mean they could all be the same guy, some have proposed. But if they are all separate individuals and they did all teach their blood relatives it could work. But we have no confirmation of any of this so it is all wild speculation.

All we do know is Odin taught Merlin and Merlin teachings have passed down the line, presumably to Harry.

[Bad Alias]

@ Con: Thanks. I knew there was something. I just couldn't remember what.

@ Yuillegan: I wouldn't even call my idea a theory. Just a "this is possible." It's just one of many things that could explain why Odin was involved. Just being Odin, and all that entails, could explain why he was involved. The assumption that all those masters and apprentices were related is a pretty big assumption. We know of at least eight master/apprentice relationships.

(click to show/hide)

Odin/Merlin, Justin/Harry, Justin/Elaine, Simon/Justin, Ebeneezer/Harry, Ebeneezer/Margaret, Luccio/Morgan, Harry/Molly

Only two of them are explicitly related by blood, with an additional two being related by law (which I can't imagine working for a bloodline curse). That's a 25 or 50% "wizards taught by family member" rate.

There are a lot of parallels between Odin and Harry. Odin is one of the prototypical wizards modern fantasy wizards are based on. Harry is a wizard. They both receive advice from a severed head. They both have died, gained knowledge, and returned. Odin lost his eye. Harry nearly lost an eye. And on top of all that, Butcher established an unbroken master/apprentice chain between them.

[Yuillegan]

And also to add to your eight, LaFortier/Christos, Kemmler/Cowl, Kemmler/Grevane, Kemmler/Corpsetaker. Can't remember any others of significance off the top of my head.

The more I read stuff about Christos, the more I remember how he is such a likely candidate for Black Council/Circle. Could be Cowl, but I suspect they are just playing on the same team.

Oh yes, the Odin/Harry parallels are strong. I do wonder if Jim is setting something up, even if Harry doesn't = Odin. I think he has set up a few things like scars on purpose. Considering what we know about Vadderung and his foresight and planning, likely none of Harry's encounters with him were not pre-planned, even if Harry thinks they were. And Vadderung would definitely know of their connection. I am sure he has kept an eye on Merlin's bloodline and his line of apprentices, no doubt. Not to mention all the other reasons he has shown an interest in Harry.

[Con]

I don't think Cowl is one Kemmlers apprentices he outright says he has nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler and his disciples. Harry also says his magic feels different from the others.

Regardless, I think Vadderung maintained the Outer Gates while The original Merlin maintained Demonreach.

[Bad Alias]

And also to add to your eight, LaFortier/Christos, Kemmler/Cowl, Kemmler/Grevane, Kemmler/Corpsetaker.

Do we know if any of them were actual master/apprentice relationships? Were any of the Kemmlerites confirmed apprentices, or were they just followers/disciples?

Cristos was LaFortier's protege according to Ebeneezer in Turn Coat.

[Faithmage]

It could also be that he used to the Warden.