Author Topic: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are  (Read 3578 times)

Offline raidem

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Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« on: January 28, 2018, 12:45:11 AM »
I created this thread and I deleted it previously because I didn't think people were interested in it, but Groinkick was.  So I recreated it.

I stated that Harry, consistent with my theory of "There You Are", will jump at some point to the moment(s) around the time he meets with Uriel in Ghost Story.  He will likely jump from a time of great danger, and will need to jump to a time where he needs to be on a plane of existence close to the Primal Plane.  It will be "No matter where you go, this you are" memory that will have Harry realizing he can jump back to meet with Uriel.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2018, 04:16:35 AM »
I don't know if time travel is in Uriel's purview, but I was thinking about Chronos.  He's the god of time, and is also associated with the zodiac wheel (Starborn?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos


I don't know exactly what the "There you are" theory is.  In the books when someone says "there you are" is it a clue that the person had been in contact with a time traveling version, and when that person vanishes they find the present Harry and are like "there you are"?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 04:18:19 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2018, 02:07:55 PM »
Quote
I don't know exactly what the "There you are" theory is.  In the books when someone says "there you are" is it a clue that the person had been in contact with a time traveling version, and when that person vanishes they find the present Harry and are like "there you are"?
You are close.  It comes from the hints given to Harry both by Id Harry in Fool Moon and by Uriel in Ghost Story.  They each tell Harry: "No matter where you go, there you are."  So I thought when reading Ghost Story that Uriel wanted Harry to consult this IdHarry which he indeed does later on in Skin Game.  When he does he finds exactly what "Bonnie" is.  Anyways, I further wondered if perhaps, the "there you are" part of the phrase had meaning in and of itself, like when Harry says "set the wayback machine" and later revisits an earlier time.  So, my "there you are" theory proposes that Harry revisits some of these "there you are" particularly the ones in Grave Peril. I went through all the books and gathered the "there you are" Jim uses in the text.  I don't think all of these are relevant but I think some may indeed be. 

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,47759.0.html

The people involved in "There You Are" include IdHarry, Uriel, Thomas, Bianca, Kravos ghost, Billy, Mrs. Spunklecrief, HWWB, Murphy.  So, the time travel angle and revisiting of times in the past could include these people.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 02:12:06 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2018, 07:07:02 PM »
Interesting...  My main question is Jim the type of author to pull something like this off?  I'm not sure.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2018, 09:11:07 PM »
Well, I think it highly likely that grave peril will get revisited.  Jim likely will have Harry revisit the choice that spawns mirror mirror.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2018, 02:46:29 AM »
Well, I think it highly likely that grave peril will get revisited.  Jim likely will have Harry revisit the choice that spawns mirror mirror.

Yeah that will be interesting!
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2018, 03:35:21 AM »
Oh, I finally finished Amber Chronicles and I think I know what idea Jim will use from it.

Merlin, in the Amber series, has the car that he like lots on Earth.  Anyways, toward the end of the series, since he has such an attachment with it, etc, it becomes a stopping off point where he brings allies to(teleport to in shadow), fills them in, continues on, appears there with a new set of allies with some of the previous ones remaining, others gone, they converse, etc.  This gets repeated a few times as Merlin goes about his mission.  When he gets to a new situation, something like this occurs at some point.  Anyways, another issue that is involved is pattern-ghost or logrus-ghost.  These are either constructs created by pattern or logrus, something kinda like a shade.  Anyways, sometimes in certain situations when Merlin gets sent on 'ghost quest' by the cosmic powers of order and chaos, he befriends some and they accompany him and become some of the allies he brings with him to the 'car.'  These allies then can interchange with their real selves or not.  For some of these ghosts or shades, Merlin has to feed them his blood because they can't operate for long.

With this idea, Harry's allies can get clued in once Harry gets to this position and this 'car' need not be 'static' to time/place.  The 'car' is on a higher plane of existence so the clued allies can be dropped off somewhere on the timeline and perhaps even along the parallel worlds adjacent to Harry's own.

At that point, the "there you are" could be at times some 'secret' handshake out in the open.

This FULL 'CAR' ability would be like Harry having access to Uriel's office in Ghost Story.  And a car that drops people off.

The small 'car' effect could work at Harry's gravesite, or the basement of BFS building maybe. or demonreach.  Any site though would probably be a nevernever side of things.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 02:56:23 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2018, 04:25:20 AM »
Sounds like an awesome story, I need to check it out!  Sounds like it's your cup of tea as well.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2018, 03:01:22 PM »
It has the potential to explain many of the things far in the background of what may be occurring in the Dresdenverse.  There is a Chaos vs. Order fight going on with Harry being a 'nexus.'  Harry will have to straddle each.  I think though there may be a 'third' party in Amber that is equivalent to the Lovecraftian/Outsider stuff, but that we really never seen on screen in the Amber series.  So, I think the cosmic battle includes Chaos, Order, and Lovecraftian Horrors, with the Horrors being the 'real' bad guys. Chaos agents, in my mind, are 'bad' but I don't think they'd like for the cosmos to end either.  They'd rather the fight Chaos vs Order to continue to infinity, but each does want to one-up the other.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2018, 07:57:39 PM »
Doesn't a pentagram have 5 points?  I wonder if Jim used something like that.  Off the top of my head the points could be:

1. Good - TWG
2. Evil - Fallen
3. Chaos - Old Gods/Outsiders
4. Order - Sidhe
5. Choice - Mortal realm
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Time Travel, Safety, and There You Are
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2018, 08:43:59 PM »
From what I gathered with Amber, there are 3 significant points.  At first, there were 2.

It was Pattern vs Logrus.
Then Corwin created an additional Pattern not knowing the Fate of the original Pattern.
Now, there are 3 points and the Corwin balance is drawing strength from the other 2.  It wants a stalemate between Pattern and Logrus.

There was a mention in the Amber series of Five Figures standing with their back to the inside of the Pentagon. So, each figure is facing out.  I forget what that was about. (That was about Dara (Merlin's mother, Julia Merlin's ex, Jurt Merlin's half-brother, Coral Merlin's one night fling, Corwin Merlin's father.)  They all summon Merlin for different but similar reasons.  They aren't exactly working in concert which is what the facing out symbolizes.

Now, to your point it could work.  I just don't like the Old Gods/Outsiders being Chaos but yes they 'fit' that role. I'd rather have Outsiders being tentacles, horrors and such not 'chaos.'  I think we will find that 'old gods/outsiders got taken by a power from the abyss. This could be similar to chaos but I think chaos will come to abhor it, as it ends 'the game.'  Things that "end the game' from a cosmic powers perspective aren't natural.  The cosmic powers do like the fight though.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 09:08:23 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html