Hades/Socrates2.0; Plato/Pluto

[raidem]

Many people have wondered about the identity of Mab, Vadderung, and some others.  When I read Skin Game and came across this interchange I wondered if Jim was hiding Hades identity within this exchange. 
I wondered, what if Socrates is the latest holder of the Hades mantle. 
EDIT: GRIFYNN has made a potentially better suggestion that there may be a Plato/Pluto duality at play.  Plato being student/contemporary of Socrates; Plato being same but different name of Hades.

“I am not what the current age of man would call a ‘people person,’” he said, frowning. “I have never been terribly social. If I had the skill, I would say words to you that would put you at ease and assure you that you are in no immediate peril of my wrath.”
“Your actions have already done so,” I said.
The wispiest shade of a smile line touched the corners of his eyes. “Ah. You have a certain amount of perception, then.”
“I used to think so,” I said. “Then I started getting older and realized how clueless I am.”
“The beginning of wisdom, or so Socrates would have it,” Hades said. “He says so every time we have brunch.”
“Wow,” I said. “Socrates is, uh, down here?”
Hades arched an eyebrow. He lifted his free hand, palm up.
“Right,” I said. “Sorry. Um. Do you mind if I ask . . . ?”
“His fate, in the Underworld?” Hades said.
I nodded.
Hades’ mouth ticked up at one corner. “People question him.”
The dog took note that it was no longer being petted, and the nearest head lifted up to nudge itself beneath Hades’ hand again. The Lord of the Underworld absentmindedly went back to petting it, like any man might with his dog.

NO INSULTS ALLOWED THREAD
BACKUP TO ORIGINAL HADES/SOCRATES THREAD

[raidem]

He didn't say he talks to himself at brunch.  It was only implied that he talks to Socrates. 
He just said basically that "Socrates...says so [the beginning of wisdom] everytime we have brunch."  Given that many of these entities, or mantles are/and have multiple personas I wouldn't put too much weight on the we as delineating Hades from another person sitting opposite aside him at lunch." I can see Hades/Socrates having lunch with another, (he does share a drink with Harry), and he often gets asked questions, just like Harry asks him questions.  He often tells people "...the beginning of wisdom" just like he told Harry.  This is all consistent with what he said.  He just interjects the name Socrates for his name, instead of Hades.

“Wow,” I said. “Socrates is, uh, down here?”
Hades arched an eyebrow. He lifted his free hand, palm up.

Read with either Socrates or Plato as Hades/Pluto.
Hint: The one and only, right here. Vs. This is the underworld.

“Right,” I said. “Sorry. Um. Do you mind if I ask . . . ?”
“His fate, in the Underworld?” Hades said.
I nodded.
Hades’ mouth ticked up at one corner. “People question him.”

Read as Socrates or Plato as Hades/Pluto.
Hint: You dupe, I just told you 'people question him' immediately after you asked me his fate AND my mouth ticked up at one corner. Sometimes, you know, 2+2=4
Jim: You dupes put it together.

That all said, sure, Hades may not be either Socrates or Plato, but with all these mantles passing this way and that.  It's a possibility. And one that is already built-in should Jim want to use it.

[jonas]

If you look at that convo, Hades also implies that once upon a time he had a mortal enough form to effect the future/history. Considering Socrates comes from early Greece and helped define Hades i'd supposite He came down as Socrates. They share an acceptance of death/similar trope from Socrates accepting death to Hades not liking death cheated. Even the rooster given away at his death, in the version I have, said physician is his dear friend as well. A Consolation/debt from loosing a bet when coming down as Socrates?
Plus the whole mortal to diety trope is everywhere. If Hades is one of the generational prisons then he shares a similar circumstances earlier in  life that of Odin, Merlin, TWC/Anti-TWC, ect

[raidem]

Summation Of Original Thread
1).  The Preponderance of people voiced the opinion that Hades is distinct from Socrates.
2).  Gryffn suggested it might go better with a Plato/Pluto duality rather than Hades/Socrates one.
3).  Mr. Death strongly disagreed with suggestion that there was any shared identity between Socrates and Hades.
4).  Iago himself voiced his opinion that Hades and Socrates were separate, along with an admonition.

[jonas]

*Looks around, shakes head* Wasted effort unfortunately.*walks away*

[Cozarkian]

Did the other thread actually get closed? It didn't seem that bad...

Anyway, you know my opinion, but in the interest of furthering discussion rather than just disagree I'll propose an alternative. I think Socrates would be more likely to have been the Greek pantheon equivalent of a Winter Knight.

Or maybe a KOTC - the Swords essentially disarm magical opponents of their supernatural advantages, leveling the playing field. Similarly, Socrates disarms opponents with questions.

Personally, I think Hercules is the best candidate for a Winter Knight style role, but I believe we have confirmation he was a mantle, because isn't he the hulk somewhere now? Or maybe one of the gods known to turn wrestler?

[Griffyn612]

Posted by: Griffyn612 « on: Today at 10:26:14 AM »
This might have gone better if you'd proposed a Plato/Pluto duality.

That has the added benefit of having two separate individuals but with a strong link to Socrates of the person who holds the Hades mantle, as Plato studied under Socrates.  The exchange loses some of the irony but not all, and it does twist the irony in a different directions than the one that I took it as.

Additionally, it was Plato that has a mysterious and unknown origin, it was Plato that spoke and debated with Socrates (to the point that his greatest works are dialogue involving Socrates, rather than himself, making philosophical leaps), and it was Plato that recorded the Myth of Er (once again recording or mimicking Socrates dialogue) that told the story of a man that journeyed through the afterlife (think Dante's Inferno, only less horror and 1700 years earlier) and return (alas, no appearance by Hades).

The story greatly increased the dialogue at the time of people being judged for their actions and true beliefs upon the their death, and all but introduced the idea of heaven and hell (previously, the only punishment described by religion was the Egyptian practice of annihilating the wicked so that they no longer existed)

The Myth of Er could have been, in a way, like Anne Rice's Memnoch the Devil.  Not to get too spoilery for what I consider her best novel, it delves into not only the journey of an Inferno/Er type story, but the purpose of it and the goals of the powerful beings that allow such journeys.  Because such things don't "just happen". 

[Cozarkian]

I kind of like the Plato/Pluto idea. It cements the relationship, explaining why Hades has brunch with Socrates.

[raidem]

I'm sorry, I chose to delete the thread myself.  Sorry to all that contributed to it.  I chose to refocus anew without side issues.

“I used to think so,” I said. “Then I started getting older and realized how clueless I am.”
“The beginning of wisdom, or so Socrates would have it,” Hades said. “He says so every time we have brunch.”

Why would Socrates be telling Hades every time they have lunch that "beginning of wisdom is understanding how clueless i really am."  Is Socrates repeatedly saying that he himself is clueless and that is the beginning of wisdom every single time to Hades at brunch. Is Hades saying he is clueless and Socrates is telling him that is the beginning of wisdom.  Or is another person there at the table for brunch when Socrates tells the other, who recognizes that they are clueless, that it's the beginning of wisdom.

[Griffyn612]

I'm sorry, I chose to delete the thread myself.  Sorry to all that contributed to it.  I chose to refocus anew without side issues.
Why would Socrates be telling Hades every time they have lunch that "beginning of wisdom is understanding how clueless i really am."  Is Socrates repeatedly saying that he himself is clueless and that is the beginning of wisdom every single time to Hades at brunch. Is Hades saying he is clueless and Socrates is telling him that is the beginning of wisdom.  Or is another person there at the table for brunch when Socrates tells the other, who recognizes that they are clueless, that it's the beginning of wisdom.

Recognizing ignorance in oneself is the root of wisdom. 
Recognizing it in others is the root of understanding. 
Recognizing it in the gods is the root of perdition.

[exartiem]

I'm sorry, I chose to delete the thread myself.  Sorry to all that contributed to it.  I chose to refocus anew without side issues.
Why would Socrates be telling Hades every time they have lunch that "beginning of wisdom is understanding how clueless i really am."  Is Socrates repeatedly saying that he himself is clueless and that is the beginning of wisdom every single time to Hades at brunch. Is Hades saying he is clueless and Socrates is telling him that is the beginning of wisdom.  Or is another person there at the table for brunch when Socrates tells the other, who recognizes that they are clueless, that it's the beginning of wisdom.

The English language is funny.  Hades could have been using a play on words.  "We have brunch" with him referring to himself in the plural, as both Socrates and Hades having brunch with someone else, or by himselves.

[wardenferry419]

I like Plato/Pluto. Especially with the letter-play.