ritual to remove a denarian shadow

[g33k]

I think this is something of a fallacy, it's essentially saying that because they've had the problem for 2000 years they must have solved the problem several times by now.   

I wasn't saying that the Church has any "tried and true" methods (in fact, I suspect they fail more often than not).  Rather, that the Denarians have had 2000 years to figure out ways for their shadows to resist being evicted...

Michael only knows of one way to remove a shadow safely, so if the Church is holding more methods secret from even the Knights, they must be pretty horrific.

Except that we already know that the Church policy on the Knights and the Denarian Problem is highly compartmentalized & need-to-know, strongly resembling a cross between violence-oriented "special ops" and covert-ops "spycraft".  All we know is that the Church knows of no way that a Knight (who was unable to contact his handler/support) has no good way to do it on his own (or the Knights would know it, in case the chance arose in the field); other methods the Church may (or may not know) of, are specifically NOT something the Knights "need to know."

[g33k]

I seriously doubt that. Even if all the records the Church had on this method were destroyed, the fact that Lash was so surprised when she realized that Harry had resisted her so long would imply that no one had done so before. (I think Lash actually said something to that effect, but I don't have my of the books with me to check.)

I think no mortal had PREVIOUSLY resisted a Shadow ON THEIR OWN.  The support of the Church may well have allowed a mortal to resist that long, but the Denarians were probably keeping track of Harry enough to know that he hadn't gone to the Church for help (rather the opposite -- Harry AVOIDED the Church & even Michael).  I suspect that the prior Denarian experience of "resisting a Shadow on one's own" looks an awful lot like suicide...  So, they were confident that Lasciel's Shadow had brought Harry largely to heel.

I reiterate my basic positions:

• Humans change, and grow, and heal.
• Humans have free will; for them redemption is at once incredibly hard... and the simplest thing in the world.
• A shadow of one of the Fallen is PART of the human host, but an unnaturally forced part.

I suggest that (if the Shadow doesn't succeed in tempting/bargaining/coercing the host to take up the coin) healing from the Shadow is a normal, natural thing; the Church strategy is just based upon giving the mortal time to heal.

[nadia.skylark]

Does anyone have a copy of White Night to look up what Lash said when Harry pointed out how long he'd resisted her? I have a feeling it will resolve some of the questions about whether a shadow had ever been evicted before--or will at least give us more to talk about

I think no mortal had PREVIOUSLY resisted a Shadow ON THEIR OWN.  The support of the Church may well have allowed a mortal to resist that long, but the Denarians were probably keeping track of Harry enough to know that he hadn't gone to the Church for help (rather the opposite -- Harry AVOIDED the Church & even Michael).  I suspect that the prior Denarian experience of "resisting a Shadow on one's own" looks an awful lot like suicide...  So, they were confident that Lasciel's Shadow had brought Harry largely to heel.

I reiterate my basic positions:
Humans change, and grow, and heal.
Humans have free will; for them redemption is at once incredibly hard... and the simplest thing in the world.
A shadow of one of the Fallen is PART of the human host, but an unnaturally forced part.
I suggest that (if the Shadow doesn't succeed in tempting/bargaining/coercing the host to take up the coin) healing from the Shadow is a normal, natural thing; the Church strategy is just based upon giving the mortal time to heal.

I'm somewhat skeptical about the Church thing--if it were true, you'd think that Michael would have mentioned Harry's situation to Father Forthill, and he would then have told Michael. Of course, it's possible that Michael didn't tell Father Forthill, but if the Church had a way of evicting shadows, then one would expect the Knights would at least be told to tell their handler in the Church if they ran into an Enshadowed who wanted to be freed.

Also, not all injuries heal (unless you're a wizard ).

[Quantus]

Does anyone have a copy of White Night to look up what Lash said when Harry pointed out how long he'd resisted her? I have a feeling it will resolve some of the questions about whether a shadow had ever been evicted before--or will at least give us more to talk about

Good Call:

(click to show/hide)

"How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for longer than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?"

"Never," Lasciel's shadow replied in a near-whisper. "Granted, you are unusually stiff-necked, for a mortal. Suicidally so, in fact."

Now just playing devils advocate, but there is always the possibility that this is a calculated bit of deception on her part to make Harry think he's strong enough to resist Lasciel, and lure him into a flase sense of security.  But that late in WN I want to give Lash more credit than that. 

I'm somewhat skeptical about the Church thing--if it were true, you'd think that Michael would have mentioned Harry's situation to Father Forthill, and he would then have told Michael. Of course, it's possible that Michael didn't tell Father Forthill, but if the Church had a way of evicting shadows, then one would expect the Knights would at least be told to tell their handler in the Church if they ran into an Enshadowed who wanted to be freed.

That's where I fall on that one too.  I understand there is operational security, but that is a specifically important bit of information that the Knights would need to know to keep them from trying to save somebody that is beyond help OR condemning somebody that isnt.  The means and/or possibility of removing a Denarian's influence from a host is just plain too fundamental to their purpose and Power to risk them not knowing everything the Church does. 

[g33k]

... that is a specifically important bit of information that the Knights would need to know to keep them from trying to save somebody that is beyond help OR condemning somebody that isnt.  The means and/or possibility of removing a Denarian's influence from a host is just plain too fundamental to their purpose and Power to risk them not knowing everything the Church does.

The Church has a method, IIRC:  forswear all worldly power & action, live a life (with Church support) of penitential prayer & meditation.  Eventually, the Enshadowed can become cured of the Shadow.  I believe Michael tells Harry this.  It's the method Michael knows, from Church teachings; this means that the Knights should try to turn the Enshadowed over to the Church hierarchy, rather than holding them and trying to talk them 'round "in the field" (I mean, I'm sure they DO try to persuade the Enshadowed for as long as they are with them... ) .   Church doctrine seems to be that the Enshadowed CAN be saved (via seclusion).

The Church *MAY* (we have no evidence for this, either way) have some other method(s) that they regard as non-usable "in the field."  They wouldn't necessarily reveal these to the Knights.  If the Church has NEVER seen a mortal independently resist a Shadow (and by Lash's testimony, they wouldn't have), Michael was showing extraordinary faith in Harry!
 

[nadia.skylark]

The Church has a method, IIRC:  forswear all worldly power & action, live a life (with Church support) of penitential prayer & meditation.  Eventually, the Enshadowed can become cured of the Shadow.  I believe Michael tells Harry this.  It's the method Michael knows, from Church teachings; this means that the Knights should try to turn the Enshadowed over to the Church hierarchy, rather than holding them and trying to talk them 'round "in the field" (I mean, I'm sure they DO try to persuade the Enshadowed for as long as they are with them... ) .   Church doctrine seems to be that the Enshadowed CAN be saved (via seclusion).

Actually, I believe the method was for Harry to give up his magic. Nothing was said about seclusion, or indeed about saving people who didn't have magic.

And really, I'm skeptical about whether Harry giving up his magic would have gotten rid of the shadow. It probably would have gotten rid of Hellfire, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it would get rid of the rest (unless the answer is "God would do it" in which case the question becomes "why wouldn't God get rid of the shadow without insisting that Harry give up much of his ability to help people first?").

[g33k]

Actually, I believe the method was for Harry to give up his magic. Nothing was said about seclusion, or indeed about saving people who didn't have magic.

And really, I'm skeptical about whether Harry giving up his magic would have gotten rid of the shadow. It probably would have gotten rid of Hellfire, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it would get rid of the rest (unless the answer is "God would do it" in which case the question becomes "why wouldn't God get rid of the shadow without insisting that Harry give up much of his ability to help people first?").

I think the fundamental issue for wizards is the degree to which "magic" represents a raw will-to-power:  utilizing force of will to make the universe conform.  That sort of mental process would perhaps be very reinforcing to the parts of the mind/brain/etc where the Shadow resides...  Abandon it, and the Shadow "starves" -- normal un-Enshadowed neural pathways get reinforced, etc.

Our concepts of "self" as largely autonomous and self-aware are a bit illusory.  People who fight a lot actually reinforce the neural pathways leading to conflict, and engage in it more-readily... all while "feeling" they are "the same" and just as likely to choose a peaceful solution "if they wanted to."  The become LESS CAPABLE of achieving peaceful resolutions, or holding to a peaceful position when challenged.

In Harry's case, he was getting more and more angry/violent/scary without even noticing it, under the influence of Lasciel's Shadow.  It was a spiral deeper and deeper into the abyss (or The Abyss, if you will).

[nadia.skylark]

I think the fundamental issue for wizards is the degree to which "magic" represents a raw will-to-power:  utilizing force of will to make the universe conform.  That sort of mental process would perhaps be very reinforcing to the parts of the mind/brain/etc where the Shadow resides...  Abandon it, and the Shadow "starves" -- normal un-Enshadowed neural pathways get reinforced, etc.

The problem with this is that it seems to imply that a shadow would have little to no effect on someone who wasn't a wizard, and that the shadow would be wiped away from them--which seems highly unlikely.

Our concepts of "self" as largely autonomous and self-aware are a bit illusory.  People who fight a lot actually reinforce the neural pathways leading to conflict, and engage in it more-readily... all while "feeling" they are "the same" and just as likely to choose a peaceful solution "if they wanted to."  The become LESS CAPABLE of achieving peaceful resolutions, or holding to a peaceful position when challenged.

In Harry's case, he was getting more and more angry/violent/scary without even noticing it, under the influence of Lasciel's Shadow.  It was a spiral deeper and deeper into the abyss (or The Abyss, if you will).

True, but how would Michael know that? Harry had been avoiding him since he got the shadow.

[g33k]

Also, not all injuries heal (unless you're a wizard ).

A couple of considerations, here...

First, we don't know how much more resilient a wizard is, vs. psychic injuries; more so than an "average mundane," I suspect... other disciplines may give as much (or more!) resistance to a Shadow's influence.  The physical healing that a wizard does may be an entirely-different thing.  I think this is a complete imponderable -- we have no info either way.

Second, I presume that the influence of a Shadow -- the imprint made from a moment's contact -- is less than sustained psychic contact with one of the Fallen (such as carrying a Denarius continuously & accepting a bargain!).  Nevertheless, we know that sometimes, the Knights win -- they get someone to renounce the Coin and the Denarian with it!  So I expect that a Shadow can also be resisted and overcome (in more cases than Harry's).

[g33k]

True, but how would Michael know that? Harry had been avoiding him since he got the shadow.

  But Harry's friends keep in touch; I expect Murphy in particular kept in touch with Michael, but also maybe Butters, even the Alpha's.

[nadia.skylark]

But Harry's friends keep in touch; I expect Murphy in particular kept in touch with Michael, but also maybe Butters, even the Alpha's.

Why? So far as I can recall, Murphy and Butters had at this point met Michael all of once, at the end of Death Masks. Assuming they met regularly based on this would be like assuming that Murphy regularly calls up Ebenezer just because they met during Blood Rites, or that Charity keeps in touch with Fix after Proven Guilty. Harry has plenty of friends and allies that have nothing to do with each other outside of him.

For that matter, I don't think the Alphas have ever met Michael.

[Quantus]

Why? So far as I can recall, Murphy and Butters had at this point met Michael all of once, at the end of Death Masks. Assuming they met regularly based on this would be like assuming that Murphy regularly calls up Ebenezer just because they met during Blood Rites, or that Charity keeps in touch with Fix after Proven Guilty. Harry has plenty of friends and allies that have nothing to do with each other outside of him.

What point are we talking?  Murphy is clearly keeping in touch with Butters, Elaine, and the Carpenters to some extent post-Changes.  Prior to that his friends were far more fragmented, but after they were forced to band to together somewhat   

For that matter, I don't think the Alphas have ever met Michael.

They were all involved in the fight in SmF, so they are aware of each other at least then.  Daniel is clearly familiar with them by GS.  Can't really say much more after that. 

[nadia.skylark]

What point are we talking?  Murphy is clearly keeping in touch with Butters, Elaine, and the Carpenters to some extent post-Changes.  Prior to that his friends were far more fragmented, but after they were forced to band to together somewhat

They were all involved in the fight in SmF, so they are aware of each other at least then.  Daniel is clearly familiar with them by GS.  Can't really say much more after that.

We're talking about the time up to Proven Guilty. In later books, I agree that everyone is much more interconnected.

[Quantus]

We're talking about the time up to Proven Guilty. In later books, I agree that everyone is much more interconnected.

Ah, roger that.  Ya, prior to PG the only one that had a lot of contact with anyone was Murphy, and to a lesser extent Thomas (by virtue of living with Harry).  Murphy and Butters new each other professionally, and she was aware of the Aalpha's though not precisely invited to the wedding.   She was also aware of Michael and had worked with him, but didnt really become one of the family until PG, same as Harry. 

The only one that knew everybody worth knowing is Mac.  Everybody who is ANYBODY drinks exclusively Mac's beer, up to and including Phil the security guard.   

[Lawgiver]

It is

I know. I'm talking specifically about how to use major thaumaturgy to get rid of a shadow, in order to avoid options 1 and 3.

It would seem to me the easiest solution is to not introduce the problem.  Don't have any loose Coins laying around for the PC's to get hold of.  Those this are Powerful with a capital UBER.  They're essentially Plot Device level Powerful and I personally avoid having anything even near that level of tough even remotely available to the PC's.