Author Topic: Grand Unifying Cosmological Mantle Theory [Series spoilers including MM WoJs]  (Read 36855 times)

Offline knnn

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 4946
    • View Profile
As far as Uriel's grace is concerned, a new thought I've come up with is that Michael had violated it, he would have probably done so outside of the boundaries of his own home turf reality (I.E. on the other side of the NN veil in Hades).  This could have had pretty huge ramifications on just how such a "Fall" would have shaken out.

Ooooh.  That could have interesting ramifications. 

Still, I think my original point stands in that I could envision an alternate world where the main WG religion was sufficiently different that the concept of a "Fall" is not applicable.  This would create the potentially for "secondary beings" that exist in multiple universes, just not all of them.

works great for me

Lol.  :)  It bothered me a lot more when I first came up with the idea.  You must be more theologically resilient than I am. 

Thing is, if this was really true, then those artifacts in Hades vault might really have planted been there for Nicodemus to use.  Remember the conversation where Hades reveals that the whole ordeal was a test to see if the person was competent enough to wield the items?  I never liked the implication that it was Harry that passed the tests.  After all, he was just a pawn; Nicodemus made all the plans/sacrifices (kinda how Toot-Toot isn't blamed for killing Aurora).

What if the PLAN all along was/is for Nicodemus to use the artifacts (and be the savior our Reality), and they are just currently in Harry's hands for safekeeping (so that Nic doesn't use the weapons against humanity) until the ultimate moment.  This would fit with the whole "Heaven's job is to protect humanity from Hell", and might also fit nicely with the whole Nicodemus/Deirde conversations we've overheard, as well as Nic's "You might be surprised" comment (from SmF?  It's when Harry sarcastically calls Nic a saint).

....I apologize for diverging a bit from the OP.  I'd start a different thread, but I am quite swamped right now and don't have the time to really flesh out this line of thought.  I may get back to it in a week or two.

I'd like to think that Harry's concept of the "Nevernever" is about as nuanced as his early usage of the term "Demon"

Granted, though the few WoJs we have (and you quoted) do seem to provisionally support that position.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 05:26:30 PM by knnn »
DV Geek code:

DV knnn v1.2 YR4 FR3 BK++ RP+ JB+ TH WG+ CL(+) SW++++ BC- MC---(+) SH[Murphy+, Molly+]

Find out your Dresden Files "Purity" score: http://knnn.x10.mx/purity2/purity.html

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Here's my latest take on the Power structure for the Dresdenverse.  It breaks down as Aspects of Reality.  Here, an Aspect is Reality itself, whereas an Avatar is the faith/belief manifestation of that Aspect.

EVERYTHING
In the beginning, there was EVERYTHING.
From sheer boredom, EVERYTHING then split into two:  Order, and Chaos

ORDER
(click to show/hide)

CHAOS
(click to show/hide)

ASPECTS of ORDER
(click to show/hide)

The Concept of Natural Aspects
(click to show/hide)

Applying it Loosely to The Winter Queens
(click to show/hide)

Applying it Loosely to Hecate
(click to show/hide)

Why we'll never see Hecate
(click to show/hide)

Offline hamiltond

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Here's my latest take on the Power structure for the Dresdenverse.  It breaks down as Aspects of Reality.  Here, an Aspect is Reality itself, whereas an Avatar is the faith/belief manifestation of that Aspect.

EVERYTHING
In the beginning, there was EVERYTHING.
From sheer boredom, EVERYTHING then split into two:  Order, and Chaos

ORDER
(click to show/hide)

CHAOS
(click to show/hide)

ASPECTS of ORDER
(click to show/hide)

The Concept of Natural Aspects
(click to show/hide)

Applying it Loosely to The Winter Queens
(click to show/hide)

Applying it Loosely to Hecate
(click to show/hide)

Why we'll never see Hecate
(click to show/hide)
   

Epic.
So, if I understood you, the reason we won't see "Earth" is because metaphysical "weight" would have to great an effect on reality?  Like a magic black hole?
Whaddya got for a fiery beam o death?!!
You got nuthin for a fiery beam o death!!!

"Mo Magic, Mo Problems"

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
   

Epic.
So, if I understood you, the reason we won't see "Earth" is because metaphysical "weight" would have to great an effect on reality?  Like a magic black hole?
Basically.  It wouldn't be a full two Earths trying to occupy the same space, but it'd be a massive part of Earth trying to occupy the same space as the real Earth. 

Hecate, as an Avatar of Earth, trying to manifest, would only be able to do so around that which contained her Aspect: Earth itself.  Her manifestation wouldn't be able to spread out across all of Reality and Order, like say, Uriel, who can spread his theoretical wings.

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Ok, so I'm grinding through a series reread and I just got through reading the scene where Harry is at the Stone Table and views the two Fae Queens with his Sight.  There are aspects of that scene that really seem to mesh with this whole theory in several interesting ways.

First thing of notice is the Table itself:

Quote from: Summer Knight Ch. 23
a table, made of a massive slab of rock, the legs made of more stones as think as the pillars at Stonehenge.  Writing writhed across the surface of the stone, runes that looked a little familiar.  Norse, maybe?  Some of them looked more like Egyptian.  They seemed to take something from several different sources, leaving them unreadable.  Lightning flashed again through the ground, and a wave of blue-white light flooded over the table, through the runes, lighting them like Las Vegas neon for a moment.
[/snip]
I stepped toward the Table and extended a hand.  The air around it literally shook, pressing against my fingers, making my skin ripple visibly as though against a strong wind -- but I felt nothing.  I touched the surface of the Table itself, and could feel the power in it buzzing through the flowing runes like electricity through high-voltage cables.  The sensation engulfed my hand with sudden heat and violence, and I jerked my fingers back.  They were numb, and the nails of the two that had touched the table were blackened at the edges.  Wisps of smoke rose from them.

Here's a WoJ that mentions that table and thus gives a little snippet of background info on it: (link added by me)
Quote
5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place.   

For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power?  That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.

Soooo, what if the stone table is like one of the Amber style originating poles of reality, or a physical manifestation of a "Phenomenal Cosmic Power" in elemental form even more basic than entities like the Mothers/Queens/Ladies?


The Second thing that stuck out to me in this scene is a description of Harry's "Sight." 

What is significant about it to me is that I have a lot of thoughts about how mortal memory is related to "GUCMT" considering Lea's comments in Ghost Story and Lash's comments in WN.  It seems that Mortal memories and experiences are recorded in some level of existence beyond what Mortal's are normally cognizant of.  However, Soulgazes not only transcend the normal mortal experience, but they become etched into the Mortal's mind in a way that can't be forgotten, and in a way that seems to erode at mortality/sanity.

It's almost like the flesh portion of a mortal is getting tied to that instance's Soulgaze empowered experience of the higher reality.  Also, remember that being able to do a Soulgaze is a huge bench mark for defining a Wizard (there's a WoJ about that somewhere... it allows that it isn't the only qualifying factor though)

Which ties into a part of the last thing that really stuck out to me in this scene

Third, the description of the two Queen's as seen by Harry's sight:
Quite a bit of ink was spent describing these two immense powers (the two queens) on hills on opposite sides of the table that had energy emanating from each other and meeting across the field and creating patterns and stuff.  This kind of fits in my idea of the table being/representing an upper echelon power, with the two Queens being lesser emanations of power wielded by conscious will (less free than when they were "mortal" maybe).

Even more interesting though is Harry’s reaction to being exposed to this power with his “Soulgaze” activated.

Quote
=Summer Knight Ch. 23]It was power that had existed since the dawn of life, and would until its end.  It was power that had cowed mortals into abject worship and terror before – and I finally understood why.  I wasn’t a pawn of that kind of strength.  I was an insect beside giants, a blade of grass before towering trees.

And there was a dreadful attraction in seeing that power, something in it that called to the magic in me, like to like, made me want to hurl myself into those flames, into that endless, icy cold.  Moths look at bug zappers like I looked at the Queens of Faerie.

Harry’s magic feeling an affinity towards the power of the queens fits well with my concept of mortals being much lesser emanations from the higher powers. 

I'd like to spend more time expressing these thoughts but I'm out of it at the moment.
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*