Author Topic: thresholds?  (Read 7776 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2012, 03:56:17 PM »
And he was trying to stay in-character as an Ogre. It seems unlikely he'd demonstrate a Sidhe-only power when doing that...he didn't know how much Harry knew about the Fae (ie: very little), after all. It seems more likely to me that he was indeed counterspelling under the Glamour and using that to mimic an Ogre's natural immunity.
Yes, the narration in the first confrontation with Grum notes that Ogres are particularly resistant to mortal magic, and some of the stronger ones are outright immune. This is before Harry ever throws his first spell, so clearly this is something expected of ogres.

I thought I remembered some mention that it was likely a power imbued into his armour (which was disguised under the glamour when he was appearing as an ogre).
That's how the gamebook write up of Talos has it, yes.
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Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2012, 04:05:37 PM »
Again, explicitly stated in OW.  Period.  Also stated in the novels.  Ogres are immune to mortal magic.  So are outsiders.  We have no reason to believe this is related.  Both of these points have cited a source (OW and when Harry talks about Ogres being resistant to magic or outright immune).   

Until the opposing argument starts citing sources, rather than changing topics or simply saying "No," I don't really see how this discussion isn't over...

Offline blackstaff67

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2012, 06:21:49 PM »
There is no basis for this at all. There is not some threshold beyond which you are "basically immune to magic." Lord Raith directly and explicitly had something special going on with his immunity, and nobody once ever attributes it to something like, "He's the leader of a nation, so of course he has it."
But not, apparently, immune to a Wizard's Death Curse.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2012, 08:42:56 PM »
But not, apparently, immune to a Wizard's Death Curse.

Well, would Physical Immunity apply to the Death Curse in question? I think not, any more than more traditional Physical Immunity would apply to someone grappling you or throwing a bag over your head. It gets around the immunity by not doing damage per se.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 10:47:12 PM »
But not, apparently, immune to a Wizard's Death Curse.

By canny and indirect formulation of a spell, a wizard my have it bypass even an ogre or similar creature's immunity to magic, directing his spell not to smash or burn or tear apart his target, but instead to hurl a large object, ignite mundane incendiaries, or fill the air with grains of sande whirling around his target until those miniscule grains of sand wear them away in an entirely mundane fashion, barring the magic that keeps them aloft.

We really have no idea how the spell in question affected Lord Raith, only that its effect was to interfere with his ability to feed.  Perhaps, and this is entirely speculation, the spell created a persistent spiritual miasma around him which would intercept the life force of his victims before it reached him and instead use it to extend the duration of the curse.  That is how I might accomplish the task, at any rate.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 11:01:22 PM »
By canny and indirect formulation of a spell, a wizard my have it bypass even an ogre or similar creature's immunity to magic, directing his spell not to smash or burn or tear apart his target, but instead to hurl a large object, ignite mundane incendiaries, or fill the air with grains of sande whirling around his target until those miniscule grains of sand wear them away in an entirely mundane fashion, barring the magic that keeps them aloft.
Exactly this. I had a player successfully attack a Grendelkin this way. Turns out spell immunity won't stop a tree from flying at your face.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 11:13:23 PM »
Harry's canonical first victorious encounter with He Who Walks Behind featured methodology of this sort, as well.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2012, 01:36:54 AM »
If somebody's so tough against magic that they deserve armour 20 and forty extra stress boxes against it, you might as well just give them the Immunity Power.

But if somebody comes up with a big enough spell, maybe that Immunity will fail.

This would normally be mechanically impossible, but Aspects can do anything.

Offline PirateJack

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2012, 01:42:39 AM »
If somebody's so tough against magic that they deserve armour 20 and forty extra stress boxes against it, you might as well just give them the Immunity Power.

But if somebody comes up with a big enough spell, maybe that Immunity will fail.

This would normally be mechanically impossible, but Aspects can do anything.

Yeah, when you get to that kind of defensive power the effects can easily be covered by Physical Immunity. However, there is a big difference mechanically between being hideously tough and completely immune. One you can take down if you hit it enough, the other you have to work around.

Personally, I prefer making my players do the work around thing, since it means they have to get creative.
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Offline Gozer

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2012, 07:07:47 AM »
wow... first off, thanks for all of the responce, everyone...
I'd like to steer things back on track to my original post, though... what are people's thoughts about the whole 'living threshold' thing? how about applying the threshold mechanics to a character? I'm a big fan of using existing mechanics, even in unusual circumstances.
if I use the recommendations above, I'd probably go with Toughness as opposed to Immunity. He's not immune to magic, it just has a really hard time effecting him.
I'd also really love any input anyone has about how to handle this guy in a game, both positive and negative.
perhaps I'll write up a custom power for review... although the Might over Magic has given me lots to chew on. Has there been any thought of compiling all of the Custom Powers into a Spreadsheet/Website for easier viewing?

Offline Taran

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2012, 12:31:32 PM »
The armour part of toughness effectively reduces the strength of a spell...not on the casters end (as a threshold) but on your end.  It's true that it wouldn't reduce a wizards weapon value, though, or a block value...I wouldn't even know how to start statting out a custom power like that.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2012, 03:29:07 PM »
I'd like to steer things back on track to my original post, though... what are people's thoughts about the whole 'living threshold' thing? how about applying the threshold mechanics to a character? I'm a big fan of using existing mechanics, even in unusual circumstances.
A threshold is essentially an area block with a defined border.  Where do you imagine defining the border for said living threshold?  If it's your skin, I don't think it will be functionally different from a Toughness power which only affects magic.  I suspect that's why people brought it up.

If you're wanting to walk around with one or more zones of passive magic suppression you run into both meta-game and narrative issues.  The meta-game issue is easily apparent - this boils down to a second action which automatically affects everyone not invited to be near you.  Over powered.  :/  The narrative issue is simply about where that border is placed and how it's maintained - DF's 'magi-physics' requires a border for such things.  I start to get a mental picture of some guy walking around with a giant hoop skirt to set up the border...   ;D 

The border could be something the character envisions, but then we're entering the area of active powers rather than passive.  Which leads to this...why not make it a combination of Toughness and a stunt / power which allows you to set up circles, wards, or thresholds very quickly?  Basically Toughness plus thaumaturgy at evocation's speed for wards or a more useful (and probably expensive) form of Bless This House.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2012, 03:32:38 AM »
I'd also really love any input anyone has about how to handle this guy in a game, both positive and negative.
perhaps I'll write up a custom power for review... although the Might over Magic has given me lots to chew on. Has there been any thought of compiling all of the Custom Powers into a Spreadsheet/Website for easier viewing?

It's not as fancy as a spreadsheet or a website, but there is a text document.

It's in need of an update, but there's still quite a bit of stuff on it that might be useful. If I were you I'd look at Aegis Demon Shield, Divine Protection, Home Is Where You Make It, Anti-Magic Field, Immunity, and Aura Of Influence.

Offline Gozer

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2013, 08:18:06 AM »
Back again... I hope the holidays were good for one and all.
I've written up a custom power for this one. I'd love any feedback or criticism. Also, if discussion of this power is more suited to the Custom Power thread, let me know and I'll move the discussion over there (or moderators please feel free...).

Living Threshold [-4]
Description: Whether through the actions of a Sponsor, the will of an Elder Power, or simply the alignment of the stars at their birth, the Character is a living channel for the energies that power Thresholds. Magic simply ‘grounds out’ upon contact with their body, eroding until it effectively ceases to be.
Musts: Must have a High Concept that directly relates to this power or its’ source.
Skills Effected: Conviction (determines the Strength of the Character’s natural Threshold); Discipline (may increase the Strength of the Character’s natural Threshold under very certain circumstances); Fists/Martial Arts/Might
Effects: This Power has the same four key functions as a standard Threshold. The Character’s Threshold Level is equal to the Character’s Conviction +2.

A Block
The Character serves as a freestanding block that does not need to be maintained, with a Threshold Level that opposes any and all effected Supernatural Actions. As a Block, it sets a minimum difficulty for the Success of those actions. The Character may also actively attempt to block Spells or Supernatural effects by interposing his/her body, or opposing them directly with Unarmed Attacks. Use either Athletics or Fists (as appropriate) vs. a Target of the Spell’s Complexity. If contact with the spell occurs, resolve it as either a Block or Suppression, depending on the Strength of the Spell or Effect.

A Target
More powerful creatures/spells may be able to assail the Character’s Threshold Level and damage it directly. In such a case, the Threshold Level may be treated as a Stress Track (one box per level, with consequences a possibility). The Threshold Level drops as it takes Stress hits. It recovers at a rate of 1 point per sunrise/sunset, or as determined by the GM. Any Attack must bypass the Block aspect of the Threshold prior to the results being determined. Depending on the nature of the Attack, and subject to GM approval, the character may elect to take physical stress in place of reducing the Threshold Level.

A Suppressor
Spell Effects and Supernatural Abilities will erode or completely disappear when they come in direct contact with the Character. In this case, all affected abilities and spell effects lose a number of shifts equal to the strength of the Threshold. If the spell affected has multiple parts to it, how the shifts are spread around may be determined on a case by case basis as decided by the GM, with input from the Character. In the case of attack abilities, this most often manifests as a reduction of the damage bonus provided, acting as a penalty to the actual attack roll only after the damage bonus has been reduced to zero. If it isn’t clear how to reduce an ability, then these reduction shifts might be spent on improving opposing effects and efforts.

A source of Harm
Creatures of pure spirit and other supernatural entities are particularly vulnerable to contact with the Character. They take damage from any physical contact with him/her, facing an attack equal to the Threshold’s strength during every exchange. Even Mortal Spellcasters will suffer as their magic is forcibly assaulted. Few creatures manage to hang around long in the face of such conditions, especially when their defensive abilities offer no protection whatsoever against these attacks. Depending on the creature type, some might be allowed to use a Conviction defense to resist.
Any creature affected by a Threshold suffers from Unarmed Attacks or direct physical contact with the Character as per the chart below:

Creature Type         Weapon Level (round down)
Mortal Spell Casters      Threshold Level/4
Fae, etc…         Threshold level/3
Ghosts, BC Vamps, Demons                 Threshold Level/2
Outsiders                       (Threshold Level /2) +1

Consequences should be adjusted depending on the situation or creature type.

For those affected creatures with Toughness Powers, this Character’s Unarmed Attacks should qualify as the appropriate ‘Catch’ in terms of bypassing their resistance only (although certain creatures may take additional damage, as though the ‘Catch’ was being fulfilled). A successful Grapple or a situation where sustained physical contact cannot be avoided results in damage at the full Threshold level. This effect is directly related to a creature’s relationship with a Threshold, and can easily affect creatures that are incorporeal or insubstantial.

Notes
The secondary effects that this produces (Do magically enhanced senses accurately detect the character or is there a ‘void’? Do supernatural creatures feel uncomfortable in their presence? Do evocation effects such as flame or ice have any effects? What happens if he/she travels in the NeverNever? What happens in the presence of powers such as Bless this House? ‘Healing’ of the Threshold Level may be an option worth exploring…
Does the power stack with Lethal Weapons or Claws?) should be discussed with the GM ahead of time... Unless it’s more fun to just find out in game.
The Character should not be able to take any other Supernatural Abilities without specific GM approval and a damn good story (although most Mortal Stunts should be no problem), and the ability to receive beneficial magic such as healing should be viewed with extreme prejudice. The ability to receive healing or other beneficial magic should also increase the cost to -5 or higher.
This Power is intended to be as much of a pain as a boon.
This ability is not effected by Thresholds, natural or otherwise.