Running water

[joenobody]

I'm a new GM to the Dresden Files and had some questions to come up about running water.

We did find where running water causes a threshold that grounds out magical energies of Fair (+2) strength. We read the rules for thresholds and resolved how that should work.

The question that came up though, would a wizard using water magic to move water, or a wizard using air magic to blow water around the floor of a room constitute "running" water?

The closest answer in the book I saw was Billy asking about Water Evokers shorting out their own magic on one of the post it notes. Harry said he wondered that himself. Bob noted that he'd tried to explain it to Harry, but he just didn't get it.

This led me to believe that it didn't constitute running water, and I said as much. So the next thing they tried was manipulating water running through the pipes. I grudgingly let them do that, until I did some research on the matter. It seems to me if it were that easy then water wizards could easily dispatch a number of magical things with some evocations?

Anyone else have these things come up? How did you handle them? I'd love to hear others interpretations.

Thanks for your time, and my apologies if I missed a thread already dealing with this. I did a search but didn't find anything that fit my questions.

[Haru]

My understanding/interpretation:
For running water to shut down magic, it has to be established as a threshold first. It has much to do with large bodies of water being actual physical barriers as well. Water is not shorting out magic everywhere, it does so when it is also a (somewhat) physical barrier. A river, a stream running down the street, a lake, those sort of things. Canalization for example can hold more running water than a small stream, but if it would actually affect magic, an urban wizard would be almost impossible. It is underground and it does not affect anyone in any way, so it does not short out magic.

Back to water magic:
Since the water the wizard is moving is not going to be a threshold, it does not influence magic other than maybe extinguishing fire. Moving enough water to actually have it be a threshold is probably impossible using evocation. Even a small stream will run for a long time and hold a lot more water than a quick burst of water ever could.

Let's paint a picture:
If you are covered in mud, you will still be mostly covered in mud after someone tosses a bucket of water over you. You'd need a good long shower to get all that mud off.
I imagine the same being true for magic. Just getting wet is not going to cause you to short out your magic. Even light to medium rain won't do the trick.
A good mundane countermeasure against supernaturals actually is a fire truck. Those things can pump 300+ liters per minute, and provided they have enough water to draw from, they can keep it up for quite some time. Keeping up a stream of water like that is not going to be quite hard for a wizard to do.
However, a wizard could pierce a water tank to create a stream of water that can then be established as a threshold. or ripping down water pipes can work, too, if they are not shut down by some security measures.

The fire truck actually gives me a great idea for a mundane monster hunting group.

[Taran]

I agree with Haru.  You need a constant running flow and evocation can't really do that.  I'm not sure which book (the one with the Gruffs) Harry has a hard time casting spells with the sprinklers going but, once again, that is large volumes of water pouring down.

I could see water evocation having a hard time affecting water that is already part of a threshold, though.

[Becq]

If a character wants to use water magic to short out an opponent's magic, this sounds like your choice of: placing a maneuver on the opponent (Magic shorted out) to be tagged/invoked as appropriate, orthe same, but on the scene (Indoor Monsoon, which could conceivably be used against any attempt at spellcasting), or a block vs spellcasting.  Any seem to me to be appropriate applications of water magic.

[joenobody]

I think I am in agreement with Haru and Taran, it didn't set right with me when I originally let them do it. I only grudgingly let them do it when they did a "rip pipes out of the wall and use air magic to blow it the way they wanted it to go" type of thing. I think in that instance the water running out of the pipes would have caused just as much trouble to them trying to affect it as it would the apparition they were trying to use it against.

Thanks for the responses and input. I think I needed someone to comfirm my own beliefs on the matter since my two wizards plays were ganging up on me two to one trying to get it to work, as players will. 

[Taran]

Becq has a good point, though.  Any type of magic can do maneuvers and water magic doing some kind of maneuver to short out a spell is within the theme of it.  You could do an air block to prevent oncoming magical attacks, so why couldn't you do the same thing with water magic?  You'd just flavour it as shorting out the magic instead of deflecting it.  A water maneuver can be compelled for that kind of thing - if it makes sense.  I don't think it would make an actual threshold or anything, though, unless you made it part of the compel.

[JDK002]

Also consider that ripping out water pipes and having them pour water all over the place would be a scene aspect.  Which means you can use it as a compel on the players.  I would of let them maneuver the aspect, then compelled the wizard when he used the air evocation.  Saying that the water is causing your air magic so sputter out.

[blackstaff67]

Makes me want to plant thaumaturgical land mines over all the water and sewer lines to guard against BLVs but I think that's a wee bit impractical. 

Ya know what's more important to me?  SALT.  Specifically, since so many threats are constructs, just what effect will a shotgun loaded with rock salt do?  Should I treat it as a Weapon:3 attack that satisfies it's catch when a regular load will bounce off?   

[Taran]

Yes.  And buck shots filled with iron filings would satisfy catches for fey.  Shot guns are great for that kind of thing because you can fill it with lots of stuff.  Use craft to make your own ammo.

[Richard_Chilton]

There's a short story, called Even Hand, that shows how Marcone plans to handle Dresden if the two of them ever have to throw down.

It's a good read and inspiration for ways of disrupting a wizard.

Richard

[joenobody]

I think I should have handled it as suggested as an aspect that they placed on the whole scene, or nothing at all. Even in the instance of them wanting to rip down the pipes and use wind or water magic to direct it toward the apparition. In thinking about it, tearing down the pipes would be fine in itself but I suppose trying to affect the running water once it was blasting out of the pipes with magic would have been at a -2 due to the threshold aspect of running water.

I also like Becq's and Taran's idea of using it as a straight block. Unfortunately at the time, my players were hoping to completely disupt the apparition with it. I ended up telling them, after a lot of page flipping that the most they could do with it that way was the damage it would have taken if it had tried to cross it as a threshold.

Richard, I'll have to check out the short story you mentioned. While I have read the books through once (working through them again), I've only read a couple of the short stories. The one you mentioned seems relevant to my interests.

[Richard_Chilton]

It's not in Side Jobs - you need to track down a collection called Dark and Stormy Knights for that one.  It's told from Marcone's point of view and is set before Changes.

And it gives insight into Marcone's mindset.  If Harry ever comes for Marcone, Marcone plans to be ready and to kill Harry.

Richard