Treating Super-Science as Psuedo-Magic...

[Pbartender]

I also don't like the stunt prerequisite.  It's... weird.  Why don't you just say it costs 5 refresh if that's what you want it to cost, because in effect that's what you're saying.

Because the cost wasn't the sticking point...  I was trying to emulate some minimum training in science or invention as a requirement.  Kemmlerian Necromancy doesn't seem so different in its requirements.

Maybe there's a better way to do it.   

[Sanctaphrax]

Oh, of course you wouldn't accidentally hex with this. In fact, some would argue that all sponsored magic enjoys that benefit. I meant that the immunity to the accidental hexing of others isn't necessary.

Maybe the devices (foci and enchanted items, I assume) could have a hexing level equal to the creator's Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots spent on them. So with Superb Scholarship, a normal enchanted item would be difficulty 7 to hex. A +1 focus would be difficulty 9, and a +3 focus would be difficulty 17. This makes hexing very hard, which is the point.

Needing Scholarship and Craftsmanship as casting skills does plenty to force a minimum level of expertise in science. Nobody is likely to take this without each of those skills at Good or better.

The Evocation and Thaumaturgy thing could be expressed as "Super-Science is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power."

[Pbartender]

Oh, of course you wouldn't accidentally hex with this. In fact, some would argue that all sponsored magic enjoys that benefit. I meant that the immunity to the accidental hexing of others isn't necessary.

Yep-yep... That makes sense.

Maybe the devices (foci and enchanted items, I assume) could have a hexing level equal to the creator's Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots spent on them. So with Superb Scholarship, a normal enchanted item would be difficulty 7 to hex. A +1 focus would be difficulty 9, and a +3 focus would be difficulty 17. This makes hexing very hard, which isthe point.

That'd work quite nicely.

Needing Scholarship and Craftsmanship as casting skills does plenty to force a minimum level of expertise in science. Nobody is likely to take this without each of those skills at Good or better.

Good point...  I'm still thinking about the skills, though.  As you said above, we've got three for dealing with magic, really: Conviction, Discipline and Lore.  Looking at it again, Scholarship seems the perfect match for Lore -- they're both about knowledge.  Then, we've got Conviction to determine the power of an effect and Disciple to determine the accuracy of it.  To match that, we've got Craftsmanship, and...?

Here's a odd thought...  If this is all about building gadgets, What about Resources and Craftsmanship to replace Conviction and Discipline?  Resources determines the quality of parts you can find to build with (the base power of the device), and Craftsmanship determines how well you put those parts together (the base accuracy).  Then, finish off with Scholarship replacing Lore.

The Evocation and Thaumaturgy thing could be expressed as "Super-Science is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power."

Perfectly said.  Thanks.  Exactly what I was aiming for.

[Sanctaphrax]

Resources, Craftsmanship, and Scholarship sound like good casting skills to me.

And I think I could justify having any of them replace any of the standard casting skills.

Hm. I think I might use this. I have an NPC organization that would be very suited to its use.

[Pbartender]

All right.  Take Two.  How does this look...

SUPER-SCIENCE!

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; any sufficiently defined magic is indistinguishable from technology.  You're able to invent and build fantastic devices that are only dreamed about in science-fiction to create effects that blur the line between science and magic.  Beware, for the cold logic of Science can be used to justify any action... the same inspirations that created radiotherapy for curing cancer, first created nuclear bombs.

Cost: 4 refresh for the package.  Reduce this cost by 1 if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost by 2 if you have both.  However, Super-Science! is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power.

Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). Super-Science! does not use the usual set of skills for creating super-natural effects; Resources replaces Conviction, Craftsmanship replaces Discipline and Scholarship replaces Lore for the purposes of spellcasting with Super-Science!

Super-Science! is particularly dependent on technology to produce its magic-like effects.  Super-Science! evocation effects always require a focus item, and cannot be created without one. Focus items and enchanted item created using Super-Science! are always of a technological nature and are, therefore, capable of being hexed. The engineering methods and theories required to create Super-Science! items are highly improbable and unbelievable, however, making Super-Science! devices particularly resistant to magical hexing. Any focus items or enchanted items you create have a base defense against hexing equal to your Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots the item occupies.  Furthermore, when crafting a Focus Item, Enchanted Item or Potion, your Scholarship is considered one higher when determining the strength of the item.

[Sanctaphrax]

Looks great.

Except for the last sentence.

It seems to allow a character with Scholarship 5 to create 12-shift items, which would be bad.

I suggest rephrasing it to provide a free crafting power specialization. Or maybe dropping it entirely, I dunno.

[Pbartender]

Except for the last sentence.

Hrm...  I'll have to think that over...

I was looking at the actual penalties/benefits:

• Conviction/Discipline/Lore to Resources/Craftsmanship/Scholarship skill swap...  Effectively a wash.
• Evocations require a focus...  Mostly a penalty.
• "Magic" items can be hexed...  Another penalty of sorts.
• Boost to hexing defense...  Benefit, but only as a mitigation to the prior.

I wanted a concrete benefit for the package...  Something connected to creating those Super-Science! "magic" items.

It seems to allow a character with Scholarship 5 to create 12-shift items, which would be bad.

I'm not sure I follow.

I suggest rephrasing it to provide a free crafting power specialization. Or maybe dropping it entirely, I dunno.

So, this would effectively be a freebie Refinement that could only be used as a Specialization for Crafting...  That'd actually be a pretty nice benefit for those how take just the Channeling/Ritual version, since normally those types of casters can't get specializations at all, though it severely limits how the specialization gets used.

[Sanctaphrax]

You're right, it probably does need a little something extra.

Thing is, one of the most important limits on Crafting is that you can't go past twice your Lore (or in this case Scholarship) in item power. Actually adding to the skill would raise that cap. Which is bad.

So I suggest just making it a free specialization or untyped bonus to the effect rather than the skill.

[Pbartender]

Thing is, one of the most important limits on Crafting is that you can't go past twice your Lore (or in this case Scholarship) in item power.

Huh...  I thought max item power was equal to Lore, not twice it:

"The one restriction on the bonuses provided [by a focus item] is that they may not total to a number greater than your Lore." YS278

"Nearly any effect within the range of thaumaturgy or evocation is allowed [in an enchanted item] (though evocation tends to be easier because the amount of power involved is usually comparatively small), subject to two limitations: the effect has a strength equal to your Lore, and it may only be used once per game session." YS279

"Regardless, an [enchanted] item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage." YS280  (EDIT: Aha!  That's where it came from!  I gotcha...  Never Mind. I must have missed the "two times" the first read through...  But doesn't this contradict the quotes above and below?)

"The effect strength of a potion, like enchanted items, is equal to the wizard’s Lore." YS280

Am I missing something? (Edit: Apparently, I was.)

So I suggest just making it a free specialization or untyped bonus to the effect rather than the skill.

Boosting Scholarship/Lore was a way of adding a blanket bonus to all types of Crafting.  I'm not certain how to do an untyped bonus with it getting a little unwieldy.

If nothing else, the free specialization would work just fine, and give the character a little bit of customization...  It would be a little more limited, but it could take the form as more power or more usages or more items.  Plus, like I said above, it would let Super-Scientist! who just took the Channeling option to gain a specialization and also encourage them to choose Crafting as their Channeling focus.  That might be the best route.

[UmbraLux]

"Regardless, an [enchanted] item’s casting strength after all bonuses are totaled should never exceed two times the crafter’s Lore rating—at least not without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage." YS280  (EDIT: Aha!  That's where it came from!  I gotcha...  Never Mind. I must have missed the "two times" the first read through...  But doesn't this contradict the quotes above and below?)

"The effect strength of a potion, like enchanted items, is equal to the wizard’s Lore." YS280

It just limits the number of declarations and maneuvers you can use to boost the potion's power.  Probably a good thing since potions are generally created on downtime...and a wizard with plenty of time can throw thirty plus shifts into a spell. 

[Pbartender]

Final Draft, I think...

SUPER-SCIENCE!

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; any sufficiently defined magic is indistinguishable from technology.  You're able to invent and build fantastic devices that are only dreamed about in science-fiction to create effects that blur the line between science and magic.  Beware, for the cold logic of Science can be used to justify any action... the same inspirations that created radiotherapy for curing cancer, first created nuclear bombs.

Cost: 4 refresh for the package.  Reduce this cost by 1 if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost by 2 if you have both.  However, Super-Science! is not compatible with the normal aesthetics of magic. If you have both this power and either Evocation or Thaumaturgy, then your Evocation or Thaumaturgy power must comply with the thematic and mechanical restrictions of this power.

Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). Super-Science! does not use the usual set of skills for creating super-natural effects; Resources replaces Conviction, Craftsmanship replaces Discipline and Scholarship replaces Lore for the purposes of spellcasting with Super-Science!

Super-Science! is particularly dependent on technology to produce its magic-like effects.  Super-Science! evocation effects always require a focus item, and cannot be created without one. Focus items and enchanted item created using Super-Science! are always of a technological nature and are, therefore, capable of being hexed. The engineering methods and theories required to create Super-Science! items are highly improbable and unbelievable, however, making Super-Science! devices particularly resistant to magical hexing. Any focus items or enchanted items you create have a base defense against hexing equal to your Scholarship + twice the number of enchanted item slots the item occupies.  Furthermore, you gain one free Crafting specialization of your choice.

[Sanctaphrax]

Looks great. It'll go onto the master list once I get around to updating it again, unless you object.

[Pbartender]

Looks great. It'll go onto the master list once I get around to updating it again, unless you object.

Not at all...  And thanks for all the help.

All that's left is the little details of Science!'s agenda, and what form it takes when collecting debt.  I'm thinking that the agenda can best be summed up by "Knowledge is Power", and that compels to collect debt should ideally take any form related to insatiably inopportune curiosity and the creation or acquisition of unnecessarily complex technology.