Story vs Player control

[Taran]

I'm trying to keep a balance between story and player involvement and just want a few opinions.

There's a player who, while at the bar was picked up by a socially stated NPC and the player was taken out in social combat.  We agreed that as an extreme consequence he'd take "in love with Estelle". (Estelle being the NPC)

The Party was on their way to a locale that Estelle frequents and they knew some bad mojo was going down on that particular night.  The PC who was in love with Estelle wanted to send her a note to warn her to avoid said locale.  Unfortunately they didn't have her number or her address.  After some good declarations and spending a fate point, we decided they knew where she could be found and sent her a note.

Here's where it got difficult for me.  I'd planned to have her show up mid-combat at the location to complicate things and have the party be forced to defend her from harm.  She even has an aspect that I could compel to make it so that the message the PC's sent never got to her.

I just felt, though, that doing that would have made the PC's feel their efforts were for nothing.

In the end I told the party that Estelle was being compelled to miss the message.  I offered them the opportunity to pay off the compel.

What would you have done?

[Masurao]

I have little NO experience with GM'ing DFRPG, but I with what I know, I think you made a fair deal to them. Unexpected things always happen, this is one of them, you deal with it as best you think you can. Consider this, though: they sent her a note/message after finding out where she could be contacted, but how reliable was the messenger? Or the message itself? Or perhaps Estelle has an aspect STUBBORN STREAK, or DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO! (or something like that)

From your post, I couldn't really make out if they had been involved for a longer period of time, but as they didn't know where to find her, I'm assuming they aren't really an item yet. Imagine if someone you met only a little while ago sends you a message, telling you not to go some place at a specific time. Imagine your surprise at being given that message, while you hadn't shared your address. Imagine being suspicious or curious. You could come up with lots of reasons for Estelle to be there, whether or not the message arrived.

If you're afraid the PCs might feel their efforts are wasted, you can handle it delicately, I think, by having her come prepared. So, while she still is a liability, instead of hiding behind the PCs' backs, she brought a weapon, or a bunch of friends and they help to scare of whatever is causing trouble that time.

I don't know how exactly the players handled finding out where they could contact her and what the message entailed, but if they weren't specific enough with either, I feel it would be somewhat arrogant to assume that 'we sent the message, so she won't come'. Free will and all that.

To recap: I think you gave them a fair deal, but I would have twisted it a bit. If they pay off Estelle's compel, an entirely different innocent person could enter the fray, for example.

[noclue]

I just felt, though, that doing that would have made the PC's feel their efforts were for nothing.

In the end I told the party that Estelle was being compelled to miss the message.  I offered them the opportunity to pay off the compel.

What would you have done?

Well, I wouldn't do anything that I felt deprotagonized the players, but I'd need to know more about the aspects in play to really answer this. Perhaps Estelle felt something for the PC too and came to help him (compel on the "in love with Estelle aspect"). Or maybe I would have found a way to make her not being there create a different kind of complication.

One thing to note, you had a lot of opportunity to create interesting stuff while they were doing all those declarations trying to find her. Like maybe she finds out they're trying to find her and instead she comes to them. I'm not sure how tense the relationship is between the PC and Estelle, but lots of opportunity for drama there. And then, instead of the bad thing happening that night, the throwdown happens while they're talking to her.

Like I said, need more context.

[Taran]

Like I said, need more context.

Context:

If you know Montreal, you know there's a huge hill in the middle of the city called Mount Royal.  In our game this is a place of power.  A demon was using it to amplify his powers.  He has the ability to feed on souls.  Basically he was causing mental damage to all "Shapeshifters" in a huge area of the city surrounding Mount Royal.  Shifters would take consequences and be compelled to go to Mount Royal where they'd be dominated and fed upon.

Our game started with Luc the PC who was a former criminal turned good. He's also a bear totem shapeshifter.  Luc woke up in the woods beside a half-eaten dog and a minor consequence: "Going on Instinct"

Estelle is the Mayors daughter.  SHe's super rich, has her own perfume line and reputation to party.  It also happens she's a shapeshifter as well.  Her father doesn't know.  Estelle has fallen victim to the demon on several occasions and is suffering several consequences: "going on instinct", "Heirarchy of needs" and another I can't remember.

They met in a WCV dance/strip club.  With Lustful Emotions running high and animal instincts kicking in, she picked up Luc and defeated him in social combat (doing 24 points of social stress in a single attack - she'd tagged quite a few aspects and made some assessments).  Luc fell madly in love with her and would follow her to the ends of the earth.

She took him to Mount Royal where they did it like they do on the discovery channel.  The party wizard followed them and used the Sight and found that something was feeding on them.

The next day, they decided to go to Mount Royal and find the demon.  They performed a ritual that let Luc be One with his totem(I let him use his True shapeshifting to scramble his social skills only: his body would be mostly helpless but his spirit Bear would be able to track the demon and attack it with mental attacks). They didn't want Estelle going so they sent her a message.  Since it's fairly well known where the Mayor lives, they made a declaration that Estelle still lived with Daddy in the guest house.  They called a cab and had the cabbie send her a letter.

Estelle has the trouble: pursued by the Papparazzi and an aspect Daddies Girl.

It made sense to me that the letter would get intercepted and she'd end up at Mount Royal dominated and fighting AGAINST the PC's while they tried to take out the demon.  There was going to be at least one other shapeshifter show up against the PC's but they nuked the 38 refresh demon in 2 exchanges...I was a bit disappointed, actually.

The next day, Luc went to see Estelle only to find out she's p/o'd at him.  Apparently someone had video recorded their "rendez-vous" 2 nights previous and posted it on the internet.  Mayor Daddy does not like Luc.

END CONTEXT

There's still lots of opportunity for fun happenings.  I feel like I let the Players down though.  The combat could have been better and introducing the dominated shifters earlier in the combat would have made things more interesting...and it would have been more so if Estelle was there...

[Lanir]

One thing you can do if your players just outmaneuver you in a way you're not ready for is call a brief break. During the start of it you explain that you had a plan going for the story but their current efforts would circumvent it. Let them know you think the story would be better if what they're currently doing doesn't pan out or at least doesn't have the results they're expecting. Then you give them two options. Their actions stand and they get a story that isn't quite up to what you were trying for OR their efforts bear strange fruit and you reward their problem solving in a different way later on.

Effectively what you're doing is telling your players that they got you and you're giving them a choice of immediate success or something better later. You could arbitrarily do this without consulting them if you're sure they'll trust you but calling it out both lets everyone know what's going on and ultimately lets the players stay in the driver's seat. The two potential downsides would be if they don't want to choose quickly (this is something you'd want to present to them, get a quick decision on, and then move on) it kind of defeats the purpose. And once you call attention to it, you've got a bit of added pressure to make the ultimate reward a good one if they decide to let their plans fail in the short term.

[noclue]

Context:

So, lots of ideas here:

Shifters would take consequences and be compelled to go to Mount Royal - What happens to Estelle if she doesn't go to the hill? It can't just be go to the hill to remove the consequences, or don't. Not going to the hill has to have a cost.


A former criminal - And she's been seen with the Mayor's daughter and is trying to send her a "note." Papa's not going to like that one bit. Could you have compelled that to have one of Daddy's people intercept the note and send someone after him? Uh oh...remember this part "his body would be mostly helpless...?" Smells like complications.

Her father doesn't know - What exactly did the note say? What does Daddy know if he finds it?

Luc fell madly in love with her and would follow her to the ends of the earth - Luc: She still lives with Daddy, so we can get a note to her. GM: "I compel your Severe consequence, your cabbie comes hightailing back with the news that Estelle's gone missing and someone left an envelope addressed to Luc."

His body would be mostly helpless - This is just screaming for a compel...or three.

[Sanctaphrax]

Perhaps you could have introduced another shapeshifter victim who needed to be protected. A substitute for Estelle, basically.

PS: Your mention of a 38 refresh demon going down in two turns is interesting to me. What sort of stats did the demon have? How powerful are your player characters? How did the fight play out?

[Taran]

Perhaps you could have introduced another shapeshifter victim who needed to be protected. A substitute for Estelle, basically.

This is kind of what I had planned, but the combat just went so fast

PS: Your mention of a 38 refresh demon going down in two turns is interesting to me. What sort of stats did the demon have? How powerful are your player characters? How did the fight play out?

The Party is submerged(11 refresh): Wizard, shifter, Emissary of Fae(sneak), True beleiver (holy touch/righteousness), Red Court Infected (gun specialist)

My Demon/encounter was poorly run, I think.  It was my first big combat as a GM.  As well, I'd rolled very poorly.

The demon had:
-6  physical immunity until he took one mental consequence (hence the reason to have Luc turn into a spirit and attack the creature).  Unfortunately, while I let the player respec his mental stats, I didn't give the creature a great discipline.  Mostly because I was afraid that too many exchanges of physical immunity would end up destroying the party...Luc gave him a mental consequence in the first exchange, then the wizard ripped into it with a weapon 11 Air attack using silver as the projectile.

-6 Mythic toughness
-6 Mythic recovery
(once PI was bypassed).  
Catch:+2 Holy stuff was the catch.  I gave them some semi-truthful info that silver bypassed the catch, but it only down-graded the catch.

-14 Modular abilities
+ 0 Human Form
-3 True Shapeshifting (can only turn into "living creatures")
-1 Supernatural sense(psychic): shapeshifters
-1 Pack instincts (any shapeshifter dominated)
-3 Domination (ranged) Plot device, not a combat device...

I'd stated it out a few creatures it could shift into, like a Mammoth with Mythic Strength, a spider with venomous and a web/grappling breath weapon etc...

I was going to round out the combat by throwing in some 8refresh werewolves, but I wanted them to come in in the second exchange....they never really got to do anything.

So by the encounter/scaling rules(including the werewolves, that's over 50 refresh).

[Taran]

So, lots of ideas here:

Shifters would take consequences and be compelled to go to Mount Royal - What happens to Estelle if she doesn't go to the hill? It can't just be go to the hill to remove the consequences, or don't. Not going to the hill has to have a cost.


A former criminal - And she's been seen with the Mayor's daughter and is trying to send her a "note." Papa's not going to like that one bit. Could you have compelled that to have one of Daddy's people intercept the note and send someone after him? Uh oh...remember this part "his body would be mostly helpless...?" Smells like complications.

Her father doesn't know - What exactly did the note say? What does Daddy know if he finds it?

Luc fell madly in love with her and would follow her to the ends of the earth - Luc: She still lives with Daddy, so we can get a note to her. GM: "I compel your Severe consequence, your cabbie comes hightailing back with the news that Estelle's gone missing and someone left an envelope addressed to Luc."

His body would be mostly helpless - This is just screaming for a compel...or three.

There is more going on in the background surrounding the Mayor and his daughter...this whole rigamorole is a bit of a side-plot which will thicken... in time...this was to distract them from the main objective of hunting down a Powerful Enemy.  I do see your point, though;  I was looking more short-term to reward the players for thinking about stuff other than the Big Fight, trying to protect the girl.  I didn't really see the potential to make things worse for them.

The criminal part is already starting to affect him...journalists are digging dirt up on him and are going to publish it...They Mayor will have it out for him, but time has to pass a bit before things start to happen.  It's been 4 sessions, and only 2 days of game time have passed.

[noclue]

I was looking more short-term to reward the players for thinking about stuff other than the Big Fight, trying to protect the girl.  I didn't really see the potential to make things worse for them.

Heh. As a player, I usually find it is a reward when things get worse for the characters.

Also, if you look at the Dresden books, anything Harry cares about eventually becomes a big stick with which to beat him around the head and neck

[Sanctaphrax]

I think that the encounter/scaling rules are a bit wonky.

But even so, I don't understand how such a powerful monster could be chumped so easily. How good were its skills? And did you give it any FP? And what configuration did you start the Modular Abilities in?

With Speed, it'd go first automatically. With Strength, it'd do terrible things to anyone it hit. With high combat skills and FP, it'd force FP spending in order to avoid a hit. So no matter how the players played, it should have been able to do something meaningful in the fight.

[Taran]

@Sanctaphrax

It's funny you're asking me all this.  I was going to PM you to ask your opinion on the encounter.  After that PI thread I was worried for the PC's.  I gave it a lower conviction because I was basing its domination attack on conviction.  I should have given it a higher discipline as the shapeshifter characterr was "spiritually" attacking it with a conviction of 6.

It did have FP's and it used all of them.  I was rolling sooo poorly.  I think my average roll was -2.

The creature started off with Supernatural speed and went first.  It had this configuration:

Spider
-2 breath weapon (web - grapple)
-2 Claws (venomous)
-1 echoes of the beast(tremorsense)
-1 Spider walk
-4 Supernatural speed
-2 Inhuman Str

+5 Weapons, Fists
+4 Endurance, Alertness
+3 Conviction, Stealth, Athletic
+2 Survival, Might, Discipline
+1 Presense, Scholarship, Lore

It climbed into a tree (different zone) and It used it's web to subdue one of the PC's but missed.

No-one could hit it because people couldn't get it in the tree and the PI was keeping the ranged folks from doing damage.  The wizard used Air magic to put a maneuver on it, but then the spirit totem PC hit it with a 7 stress mental attack and gave it a moderate consequence which got rid of its PI.

I know that Modular abilities needs a full exchange to change form, but after I saw that it was no longer Immune, I allowed it to change as a supplemental for fear it was going to get tromped.
The next exchange it turned into a monstrous mammoth and it charged the physical body of the "helpless PC" (who's spirit form had hurt it).  

THis was its configuration:
Elephant
-2 Hulking size
-6 Mythic STR
-2 Stomp (maneuver with Might, everyone in zone is "knocked down")
-1 Claws
-1 echoes of the beast(hearing)

+5 Endurance , Fists
+4 , Alertness, Might
+3 Conviction, Intimidation, Athletics,
+2 Survival, Weapon, Discipline
+1 Presense, Scholarship, Lore

I was only letting the Helpless PC defend with 0 dodge but another PC used a FP and tagged "Devoted Ally" aspect to take the damage instead and took an 11 stress hit.  Then everyone pounded the creature to death.  The emissary had Holy touch and did a huge hit which completely bypassed its toughness and took it out.

If I'd had the shapeshifters attack the party in the first exchange it would have kept the PC's occupied and they would have had to spread their attacks.  I don't know.  I messed up the encounter.

[Sanctaphrax]

Doesn't sound so bad to me, as long as your players weren't unhappy.

Bad rolls can sink anyone, and there was at least some action there.

Although the monster clearly wan't fighting all that intelligently.

Superb Weapons, Superb Athletics, Mythic Strength, and Mythic Speed would have made it significantly more dangerous.

Also, messing around with webs probably wasn't terribly wise. I think that a direct attack would have been more effective.

Of course, really good strategy would have been unfair to the players. If the monster had fought by dropping 18-wheelers from 100 metres up, your players would likely have rioted.

PS: By giving your players a catch to exploit, you make the fight a lot less predictable. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes this sort of result more likely.

[dger]

Going back to Estelle...
I tink its important to discriminate between the players not feeling successful and them not feeling involved.  For Example, use the idea that Masurao (I think) suggested, namely that you still have her show up, but BECAUSE of the note.  Thus the PCs have affected the story. 
Also, it seems that she had a supernatural compulsion to come.  A note isn't gonna change that.