Red Court infected and White Court Vampires oh my!!!!

[deathwombat]

Does killing them count towards a lawbreaker?
Of course I mean with magic.
Just getting information and apologies if this has been covered before.
Thx
Deathwombat

[Tbora]

Eb threatened to squash Lara in Turn Coat without the Blackstaff in hand with a bunch of other Wardens present not saying anything so I would think not.

As for red court infectee I would say depending on whether or not the redling was in the midst of their hunger thing.Whether or not they are more human or more vamp at the time.

[Dumbledresden]

From Dead Beat:

"It isn't a mortal," I said. "(...) You know the laws are there to protect our fellow wizards and mortals."

RCIs and WCVs are immortal beings, thereby not protected by the laws.

[noclue]

From Dead Beat:

RCIs and WCVs are immortal beings, thereby not protected by the laws.

Red Court Vampires are immortal beings who have given up their humanity (WCV too). Red Court Infected are sick addicted people.

[Drashna]

General rule of thumb: is it 100% human? No, then it will try to eat your face. Kill it first. 

[deathwombat]

100% humans will try and eat your face too.

[Kaldra]

it puts the lotion on the skin or it gets the hose again

[The Dread Polack]

it puts the lotion on the skin or it gets the hose again

LOL

[Drashna]

Well, *most* humans won't try to eat your face. Maybe rearrange it into new and interesting shapes.

And maybe those "humans" weren't... maybe half goblin or ogre.   Or maybe a WCV that feeds on despair.   It is a fantasy setting, after all.

[admiralducksauce]

WCVs are definitely fair game.  I personally would open hunting season on RCIs as well.  In a way they're similar to WCVs in that their human soul is fused with a demon.

[ralexs1991]

Eb threatened to squash Lara in Turn Coat without the Blackstaff in hand with a bunch of other Wardens present not saying anything so I would think not.

also don't forget the vampire courts are at war with the council at that time in the books while they may have been in a truce at the time but at war none the less

[HobbitGuy1420]

I kill a white court vampire with magic.  Am I subject to temporal enforcement of the Laws by the Wardens?  No, because it's not Human.  The Accords, however, probably have things to say about it. 

Am I subject to the soul-twisting effects of the metaphysical Laws?  That's harder to say; if I recall the book right, it says "you are if it makes for a good story." 

In a game *I* was running... I'd say that white court virgins, red court infected, and maybe even full white courtiers would hit you with Lawbreaker if you killed 'em with magic.  They're all noted as mostly-human in many ways in the books.  I'd say that the cutoff is "does it have a soul."  We know from Thomas that Whampires have souls separate (if mingled) with their demons, so I'd rule that Lawbreaker applies.

[Becq]

Generally, using magic against "monsters" is fine.  Using magic against "people" isn't.  People have souls, and ripping their soul from their body causes what in a different setting would be referred to as "a disturbance in the force".  Monsters don't have souls and killing them causes no cosmic backlash.  Note that people who behave in monstrous ways are still "people", as they still have a soul -- which may be twisted and blackened, but still can be redeemed.

There does appear to be some wiggle room in the definitions, and I think that this is largely an issue with magic being about who you are, and vice versa.  That is, if you see someone/thing as a "person", then killing them with magic will make you more of the sort of person who would kill people with their magic -- even if the victim was, in fact, a soul-less creature.  For example, I think Harry would have serious problems if he killed Thomas or Toot-Toot with his magic, despite the fact that both WCV and Fae are "monsters" with no soul.  Your group should decide how to deal with this.

[ralexs1991]

I think Harry would have serious problems if he killed Thomas or Toot-Toot with his magic, despite the fact that both WCV and Fae are "monsters" with no soul.

i don't know where you're getting the part about thomas not having a soul there's actually that scene in BR where Thomas and Harry soul-gaze

[babel2uk]

Well, the laws are worded vaguely to allow leeway either way. And from an enforcement perspective the Wardens are Judge, Jury and Executioner, so what does and doesn't count will fall under the discretion of the investigating Warden. And it's stated several times both in the books and the game, that killing someone who looks human is often seen as being the first step towards breaking the first law. It won't earn you the power, or get you executed (by the Wardens at least) but it will get you looked at closely.

The general guidelines from the rules would support WCV's up to a point and Red Court Infected being protected by the first law, encouraging as it does that you take into account the refresh level of the character in question (if they aren't clearly human). For WCV's, Changelings and Red Court Infected there is a clear point where they cross over from mortal human. At that point the Law's probably don't apply. Red Court Infected become full vampires at that point, Changelings become full faeries. WCV's are a little more complicated because they're the most human, but they are demon hosts, so it's kind of the same principle as a Red Court Vampire.