Help Clear Up Some Misconceptions: "No-Prep" Thaumaturgy

[devonapple]

There is a one-time reference to "no-prep" thaumaturgy (YS278) in the discussion of focus items, where the rules explain that if a thaumaturgic ritual's Complexity is equal to or less than one's Lore ranking, it requires no additional preparation - the caster is assumed to have the materials. Would such a ritual be possible in combat (like Waldo scratchiung out that impromptu warding circle)?

As such (though it is clear from the character writeup that Molly Carpenter's veils are powered by a high Discipline and specialization, with extra shifts pumped in for duration), is it possible for a spellcaster to be throwing down impromptu ritual-strength Veils which last until the next sunrise?

[WillH]

Yes, you can cast a no prep ritual as fast as you can put the required power into it. Each turn you decide how much power to put in then roll for control.

[Becq]

Two observations.  First of all, "no-preparation" Thaumaturgy is discussed elsewhere.  For example:

"If the complexity of the spell is equal to or
less than your Lore, assume you have everything
you need to cast the spell and you
require no additional effort for preparation." (YS262)

However, it's not entirely clear to me that meeting this requirement makes the Thaumaturgy able to be cast at Evocation speed.  Consider:

"The first is a matter of time. Thaumaturgy
is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a
minute or more"  (YS261)

This strikes me as a lot more time than it takes to fling a fireball.  My interpretation (note emphasis) of this is as follows: If you meet the complexity requirement with Lore alone, then you have everything you need on hand.  You need not skip scenes, gather components, perform research, tap arcane power sources, etc. as preparation for the spell.  But you do have to pull components out of your pockets, draw a circle, clear your thoughts, and such.

So how long does that take?  Well, the comment above indicates it takes about a minute or so, and I think that seems in line with some of Dresden's simpler rituals.  I don't see any hard rules on how long turns are in DFRPG, beyond this:

"Exchange (conflict only): The amount of time
it takes in a conflict for everyone to take one
action and defend against any actions that are
directed against them—usually not longer
than a few minutes."  (YS314)

So it takes at least an exchange worth of time to cast a ritual.  But to differentiate rituals from evocations, I'd argue that it should take a full exchange.  So you set up the ritual and start casting it during one exchange, then you make the control roll (or the first control roll as the case may be) in the next exchange.  Once you've controlled all of the power, the spell goes off.  In the meantime, you are concentrating, and therefore largely defenseless -- so you might want some friends to fend off the nasties.

Well, that's my take.  YMMV.

[devonapple]

I think it seems like a fair interpretation. If you can get the big two-exchange spell off without being attacked or interrupted, the additional duration isn't too overpowering, but most people will opt to use evocation to avoid being temporarily defenseless.

I don't see any hard rules on how long turns are in DFRPG, beyond this:

"Exchange (conflict only): The amount of time
it takes in a conflict for everyone to take one
action and defend against any actions that are
directed against them—usually not longer
than a few minutes."  (YS314)

My DFRPG players are a little bewildered by this uncertain definition, coming as they do from very simulationist games like D20 D&D, where time is very clearly definied.

[crusher_bob]

Here's my interpretation of thaumaturgy.

I take the 'no preparation' thing to mean you don't have to do any prep at all.  No drawing chalk circles or anything like that.  You just stare off into space for a bit (and spend time drawing power) and the spell happens.

[Drashna]

No. specifically, it means you have all the tools you need, or are disciplined enough to make the "constructs" necessary for the spell in your mind alone.

[Becq]

Here's my interpretation of thaumaturgy.

I take the 'no preparation' thing to mean you don't have to do any prep at all.  No drawing chalk circles or anything like that.  You just stare off into space for a bit (and spend time drawing power) and the spell happens.

Seems like reasonable house rules, and it looks as though it still takes at least two exchanges (per control roll), during which the caster is defenseless, so really not too different (though much more detailed).

[crusher_bob]

No. specifically, it means you have all the tools you need, or are disciplined enough to make the "constructs" necessary for the spell in your mind alone.

I'd rule that 'making mental constructs' is a discipline declaration (or possibly conviction), just like drawing a quick chalk circle is a lore declaration, or bringing out some 'extra rare play-doh' would be a resources declaration.

[Drashna]

Well, the playdoh, isn't really rare. Just saw it at walmart today, and we should all know where Harry shops!   That being said, spend fate point if necessary.   That or harry happened to stop at the Carpenters recently.

[Belial666]

You need at least three actions to cast a thaumaturgy;

1) Make the spell-construct. This includes providing a sympathetic link and any other preparation.
2) Draw up all the required power.
3) Cast the spell.


So, even without any preparation for the spell construct, you need a minimum of 1 action for the sympathetic link. Then a minimum of 1 action to draw the power then one action to cast the spell. So 3 exchanges for the smallest thaumaturgy.