Grappling and Feeding.

[aardvark]

I need some clarification about some situation.
Let`s presume we had Troll Scion (TS) and WCV going in melee.
TS initiating grapple by maneuver via Fists and creating Aspect "Gotcha!" on WCV.
And now is a tricky question: Can WCV initiate feed+incite emotion on TS by tagging this "Gotcha!" aspect?
And if he can... do he also can make in one action Block from Incite Emotion by Emotion Touch and Attack from Emotional Vampire by Feeding Touch?

Because if he can... it so mean 

[Tsunami]

Tagging the aspect? Most definitely not. The free Tag belongs to TS, and is used up by initiating the Grapple anyways.

WCV might be able to invoke it... but i really don't see any useful way to do it. It's an aspect denoting a disadvantage towards TS...

But: WCV can of course try to incite emotion and feed of TS... as long as he can beat the grapple strength.

[Papa Gruff]

As he has not introduced the aspect he clearly can not profit from the tag.

As the WCV is clearly aware of the aspect that has been put on him he is perfectly free to try and invoke the aspect in any way that seems reasonable to the GM and the other players. I find it perfectly reasonable to assume, that the WCV might try to initiate feeding on his opponent, as Tsunami said. Depending on how the grapple is described he might not even have to break the grapple strength to do so. The reason for that is, that the incite emotion action might be considered not to be part of the block part of the grapple. Incite Emotions only needs skin contact to work. It seams that skin contact is established in the given example situation.

In other words: As a GM I might allow the use of incite emotions during a successful grapple action. If the grapple is described appropriately the incite emotion action does not even have to break the block (best decided by a consensus at the gaming table).

Towards the last question: No! Two aggressive actions as part of one exchange are out of the question. First the one, then the other.

[aardvark]

Okay, no free tag only invoke. Clear enough.
Beat grapple block before feed+incite. Clear enough.

WCV might be able to invoke it... but i really don't see any useful way to do it. It's an aspect denoting a disadvantage towards TS...

Invoking aspect to justify "touch" context, thus getting an additional +2 bonus on Incite Emotion.

Towards the last question: No! Two aggressive actions as part of one exchange are out of the question. First the one, then the other.

Originaly i too think "No", but:
1)  in Emotional Vampire stated Feed on Emotion and Incite Emotion can be combined in one action
2) In Incite Emotion stated "can be used as maneuver or block".
And this 2 confuses my mind. And if we remember books block+feeding in one time clearly in story.

[Papa Gruff]

As I understand it the combination of Incite Emotions and Feeding touch only allows you to feed on the created emotion right away. To me the rules don't state that you can do everything in one action (meaning the possible block through incite emotions). Example:

The TC initiated the grapple with the maneuver "Gotcha!", establishing the appropriate aspect on the WCV. In his next turn the WCV may invoke the aspect to his advantage, but only if he tries for an action that seems likely to profit from the aspect. As the WCV is of house Raith he decides to incite the emotion "Lust" upon the TC. To do so he has to place a maneuver using deceit. He profits from a +2 out of his ability. If he decides to invoke the "Gotcha!" aspect that's an other +2 for the cost of one fate point. If he succeeds he places an aspect of "Intense Lust" on the TC. Now comes the point of interest. With Feeding Touch he is allowed to immediately start feeding on the TC. There is no block in place yet. The WCV might try to use the "Intense Lust" to create a grapple of his own during his next turn of the exchange, but until then the TC isn't hindered in his actions in any way.

Now: as a GM I'd immediately start compelling the "Intense Lust" on the TC. That being said I can't see a block being established by the WCV in your example. Generally it shouldn't be allowed to do a maneuver and a block action during the same exchange. However, you may choose to block with incite emotions, but then you can't establish an aspect of your own.

I hope this clears it up. It's rather complicated and I don't know if I got the point across. Simplified: You can start feeding on a incited emotion right away. But unless you take no further action there is no block involved.

[aardvark]

Papa Gruff, you help is best. But one grey area still remains in my brain

As the WCV is of house Raith he decides to incite the emotion "Lust" upon the TC.To do so he has to place a maneuver using deceit.

Emotion-Touch trapping says: "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions
as well if you do this as a block instead of as a maneuver."
So grey call:
If WCV block via Incite Emotion can he feed?
Or WCV can only feed on "maneuvered" emotions?

[babel2uk]

I'm not sure I'd want to be in the shoes of the WCV who's just been pinned down by a Troll Scion and placed an aspect of Intense Lust on them. That could get messy...

I'm fairly sure there's an example of a WCV feeding and preventing their victim from acting in the books, so I'd be inclined to allow a WCV to use the block ability of Incite Emotions and to feed at the same time, the block would be against the TC's attempts to maintain the grapple. Essentially you're saying that the fogging effect of the emotion makes the target confused as to their goals in the grapple - and if they fail it turns from a serious fighting grapple to a weaker lustful embrace - which gives the WCV more freedom of action. The only difference between the two is that once contact is broken between the WCV and the TC (by the TC breaking through the block) the emotion will vanish almost instantly and they'll need to re-establish contact. If the Incite Emotion is done as a maneuver then obviously the aspect is still there for a short time, and is capable of being compelled to force the TC back into the feeding embrace of the WCV (or to do something else which allows the WCV to continue feeding).

I would however require that the WCV break the grapple strength to use their Incite Emotion successfully. I think this has been discussed on another thread. The problem is that many people seems to view a successful grapple as simply immobilising the opponent - as a kind of static tableau - when it's more likely to be a great deal of shifting around and struggling on both sides.

[WillH]

Emotion-Touch trapping says: "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions
as well if you do this as a block instead of as a maneuver."

The thing to remember here is a block and a grapple are not the same thing, rather a grapple is a specific type of block that stops all actions*. You could incite fear as a block and the target would have to overcome the block before attacking you, but could be free to attack someone else or run away.

*Some exceptions

[Papa Gruff]

Emotion-Touch trapping says: "You may be able to prevent the victim from taking other actions
as well if you do this as a block instead of as a maneuver."
So grey call:
If WCV block via Incite Emotion can he feed?
Or WCV can only feed on "maneuvered" emotions?

Of cause he can feed if Incite Emotion is used as a block. The emotion is incited either way. The only difference is that it generates a tagable aspect when done as a maneuver and blocks a certain type of action when done as a block. If you want to incite fear as a maneuver then you can take advantage of the fear. If you do it as a block then the paralyzing fear prevents the target from taking a specified action.

Which answered question two as well. If you have the Emotional Vampire Power you may start feeding on freshly incited emotions right away, as long as your victim fails his defense roll.

[aardvark]

Thanks all! Now all is cleared.

[Tsunami]

As I understand it the combination of Incite Emotions and Feeding touch only allows you to feed on the created emotion right away. To me the rules don't state that you can do everything in one action.

Actually, the rules state that explicitly:

YS 189 under "Feeding Touch"

If you have the
Incite Emotion ability, inciting the emotion
and feeding on it may be done as a single
action, based on a single roll.