Norse Mythology and the Nevernever

[theDwarf]

I have some info on how Dvergar and Frost Giants (I'm not going to attempt to call them by the proper terminology with a bona fide scholar of these matters looking at the thread) fit in to my version of the Dresdenverse, but it definitely is spoileriffic, so just PM me or start a new thread to get it.

OK, I will start a second thread in the Spoiler section (if no one beats me to it) for any spoiler information on Norse.  
< Edit: set up in Spoiler section ... post away there! >


Originally started it here for more traffic and I thought we could avoid spoiler info longer, but I actually started working up Norse Dwarves before I <listened to> the most recent book ...




... ok, so maybe I am a "Martian", but I can listen to books and work at the same time, something I can't do while reading.  

[Deadmanwalking]

Deadmanwalking- Svartalfar actually are dwarves, and don't let White Wolf tell you any different.   

I was going with my own knowledge of Norse Myth, actually. Unfortunately, Norse myth (while one of my favorites) isn't my area of specialization, and I was mistaken (I seem to be having that sort of day...)

You are entirely correct, and I apologize for the error.

[AsaTJ]

No apologies needed if no harm was done.  That's the way of the Norsemen. 

[theDwarf]

Deadmanwalking- Svartalfar actually are dwarves, and don't let White Wolf tell you any different.   

Or TSR.

Dwarf, Zwerg, Zwerge, Dvergar, Druegar, Drow, Trow, and half a dozen other words all mean "Dwarf" in the Norse sense.

Way I understand it is that the "God - Giant" and "Fair Elf - Dwarf" dichotomies are indicative of different points of view of the Axemen invasion. The germanic Axemen, who were short, dark, and with dark hair, invaded areas inhabited by tall, fair peoples probably ethnicly related to the Finnish, Lapp or Helvetii.  The two sides told stories and from the Axemen's point of view it was the Gods (them) versus giants, and they feared reprisals, and from the native point of view it was the fair elves (them) being invaded by the shorter dark elves (dwarfs).  Many of the stories likely come from that tribal movement and the current Danes, Swedes and Norse the result of the two mixing.  An oversimplification at best, but enough for people to get the picture, even why the Dwarfs are superior smiths.  The full legends formed after years of intermixing and the references became crossed and entered into similar stories.

I could also discuss Wayland Smith and Deadelus, but hey, myths and legends get around quite a bit.    

[theDwarf]

No apologies needed if no harm was done.  That's the way of the Norsemen. 

And there is no reason why they could not be separated in a game or game world.
More names = more unique critters from a game design standpoint! 

[Da_Gut]

Actually, the dwarves being vulnerable to the metal that they work with would certainly be possible. Humans work with deadly substances all the time. It might even be a point of pride with the weaponsmiths.

[theDwarf]

Actually, the dwarves being vulnerable to the metal that they work with would certainly be possible. Humans work with deadly substances all the time. It might even be a point of pride with the weaponsmiths.

But that is more consistent with English & French stories of the Fae/Fairies rather than the Norse stories of the Dvergar, who, along with other Svartalfar such as goblins, trolls, and the like, had problems with sunlight instead (and which is why I keep using the term Dvergar for the Norse Dwarves).

Some Svartalfar would turn to stone permanently, some while daylight hit them, others would burn and blister.  Many were the color of pooled blood.

[AsaTJ]

other Svartalfar such as goblins, trolls, and the like, had problems with sunlight instead

As far as I know, actually, trolls are usually lumped in with jotun-kind.  (The ugliest among them, as they are usually described.)  And I've personally never heard mention of the term "goblin" in any Norse saga.

[theDwarf]

As far as I know, actually, trolls are usually lumped in with jotun-kind.  (The ugliest among them, as they are usually described.)  And I've personally never heard mention of the term "goblin" in any Norse saga.

The Sagas are no longer the entirety of the mythology.
There is also myths from various countries once dominated by the Norse, such as the Orkney Islands, from where the term "Trow" comes from.
Trolls may be the equivalent of giants, but are also often smaller in size.
Then there are the Vitterfolk, which are human-sized (huldrfolk, etc).
Once we hit the era of the fairy stories trolls range in size from that of giants to as small as dwarves.
Elfquest in fact blurs the line between Dwarf and Troll IIRC.


As for goblins, that is technically a French or Anglo-Norman term IIRC, but I have run across some comments as to the nature of orcneas (Beowulf).  They are not defined, but the translations I have found seem to distinguish them from giants.  In my own mind they become something similar but smaller, possibly "Hell-corpses" as defined by another analysis I ran across.  It is from Tolkien for one where the terms Orcneas (orc) and goblin cross and often become one.
Remember that "spirit", "jinn", "demon", "fairy" and even "goblin" have dual-purpose in that they can mean a generic or a specific and that their meanings can cross unless one is speaking purely in terms of a specific resource (like a specific story, such as a saga or the Dresden Files, but even then sometimes terminology "evolves" (like we see in Tolkien)).

[AsaTJ]

The Sagas are no longer the entirety of the mythology.

They are not, but my area of study is fairly strictly Scandinavian- i don't really branch out as you have into Norman/Orkney/Manx mythology, which is very cross-pollinated with Celtic and Brythonic elements.

Trolls may be the equivalent of giants, but are also often smaller in size.

Yes, in the Norse tradition they are described as smaller and uglier than other jotun, but they are a jotun tribe nonetheless.

Then there are the Vitterfolk, which are human-sized (huldrfolk, etc).

Indeed, the Vitter/Vetter/Vaettir (depending on dialect) are the closest thing in Norse lore to what the Fae are portrayed as in Dresden, though in reality they are more akin to the land spirits described by the Native Americans.  The Vaettir were tied to places and physical features.  Interestingly enough, 80% of the adult population of Iceland still claim to believe in Vaettir- even the Christians- and the nation's government has actually diverted highways so as not to disturb them. 

Elfquest in fact blurs the line between Dwarf and Troll IIRC.

XD
Maybe so, but I would not rely on that as a reliable source for studying mythology- interesting a world as it may be.

Orcs are mentioned in Anglo-Saxon sources, but even that is just on the very edge of my area of study, to be honest.  As far as Norse tradition goes, I have not heard mention of orcs or goblins.

[theDwarf]

They are not, but my area of study is fairly strictly Scandinavian-

Well, I stated "Norse" because most people tend to associate certain mythology with the Norse even though there is strong evidence it was common amongst virtually all the Germanic tribes and at least a few of the Slavic tribes.  Tiwaz (Tyr) as the chief god (Odin took over later, probably during or just before Danelaw IIRC), Wotan, Donnar (and equivalents) and so forth.  If I were to state "Germanic Mythology" or "Slavic Mythology" people would have no clue as to what I was talking about and the Norse myths from the sagas make up the largest known core (albeit other, older, records also exist).

In many ways it is the "strictly Scandanavian" myths that were older Germanic myths "corrupted" by contact with the natives, but that contact did create a lot of tales, and probably more interesting ones. 

[AsaTJ]

Yeah, I'm aware.  I just happen to be very interested in myths from a very specific region in a very specific time period.  I know that they ultimately came from older myths from other regions.  Heck, there's good evidence that Odin and Hermes/Mercury- who couldn't be less alike on the surface- were evolutions of the same Proto-Indo-European god.  I just choose to study a very small sliver of the expansive geographical and chronological scope of mythology.

[Tsunami]

They are not, but my area of study is fairly strictly Scandinavian- i don't really branch out as you have into Norman/Orkney/Manx mythology, which is very cross-pollinated with Celtic and Brythonic elements.

And here comes my pet peeve...

Brythonic IS Celtic.
Celtic is NOT necessarily Brythonic.

Just had to clear that up. ;-)

[AsaTJ]

And here comes my pet peeve...

Brythonic IS Celtic.
Celtic is NOT necessarily Brythonic.

Just had to clear that up. ;-)

Ah, I suppose you are right.  I just tend to separate out the Scottish/Irish tribes from the Welsh/Britannic tribes for no particular reason.  And also for no particular reason I think of the former as being "The Celts," though that's not really accurate.  I just tend to think of a Pict or a Gael when I hear "Celtic," and not a Welshman or a Brit.    *Shrug*

[Tsunami]

Ah, I suppose you are right.  I just tend to separate out the Scottish/Irish tribes from the Welsh/Britannic tribes for no particular reason.  And also for no particular reason I think of the former as being "The Celts," though that's not really accurate.  I just tend to think of a Pict or a Gael when I hear "Celtic," and not a Welshman or a Brit.    *Shrug*

We can't be certain that the Picts were Celts... maybe they were, maybe they weren't. We know to little about them to decide accurately.
But everything that points to the them maybe being Celts, actually points to them being Brythonic Celts rather than Gaelic ones :-)


Boy... am I in a nitpicking mood today *g*