Death Curses: How Do They Work?

[Deadmanwalking]

I see where uyou're coming from, and your interpretation is clearly as valid as mine, but I still think I'd keep the full difficulty.

On another note, using the Fate Points from Cashing Out on a Death Curse never even occurred to me, but looking at it there's no reason you couldn't. Huh. That's an additional +5 to +12 or so Complexity right there depending on your Aspects and how many Consequences you have. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[Crion]

Glad to see this is getting a bit more attention. At least I know I didn't post a boring topic ^_^;

Deadmanwalking, thanks again for soundboarding with me here. You really set my mind at ease with this, as I was afraid I'd have to do most of the work of controlling the way a Death Curse functions. Now that it makes a bit more sense and I have a feel for the limits, I'm not as afraid of a player tossing one out. Of course, I may have to allow for a stronger curse if a player's story/idea warrants it, because let's face it: you just have to reward good roleplaying somehow, ne?

As for the idea of the sponsored magic: I just remember how Harry was thinking of using some of those sponsors to the brink of death, or even using them as part of the curse, which is why I even considered it. I can imagine pouring Hellfire into a curse that causes plenty of destruction or misfortune, our Soulfire to do something "for the greater good." I can also see some other forms of sponsored magic being potential fountains of fuel, so to speak: pulling from a leyline to really hammer out that curse (especially a generational curse), or using your last moments as the Winter Knight to inflict as much harm as possible upon your foe. Again, I can see the possibilities here, especially since a Death Curse is usually used as a last resort. Any thoughts on this? And if you would use that as an option, what sort of impact do you think it would carry (i.e. more shifts, extra shifts on a certain goal, some other effect)?

Oh, and thanks for coming into the conversation, Kordeth. I can respect the idea of putting the raw power as the difficulty to break the spell, but I do have to stick with Deadmanwalking; Death Curses are supposed to be extraordinarily potent as it is taking the life of a spellcaster to do it. These sort of things should be over the top in their own way. If anything, I'd probably end up house-ruling to make it even harder to break a Death Curse, if only because of the cost behind it.

Now I need to ask about the Cashing Out rule. Would you still get those points after tagging your own consequences, as they are considered to be compels of the consequences that took you out of the fight? And would you still be eligible for those Fate Points since your character is now dead?
That's a pretty thin line there, which is why I'm asking. And if you haven't guessed, this is the first Fate system I've considered playing ^_^;

Well, time for me to pack up and get moving again. Thanks again for the conversation and ideas, everyone!

--Crion

[Kordeth]

I see where uyou're coming from, and your interpretation is clearly as valid as mine, but I still think I'd keep the full difficulty.

Actually, I snuck another look at the spellcasting rules, and you're right. The counterspelling rules do say the difficulty is the power of the spell, and the various "What You Can Do With It" sections are pretty clear that duration is extended via adding more shifts of power. I guess my brain was in Mage: The Awakening mode, where adding duration or targets to the spell comes at the cost of raw potency. So disregard that.

On another note, using the Fate Points from Cashing Out on a Death Curse never even occurred to me, but looking at it there's no reason you couldn't. Huh. That's an additional +5 to +12 or so Complexity right there depending on your Aspects and how many Consequences you have. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

It's a guaranteed 4 more Fate points, since you either already have or are accepting all four types of consequence immediately before offering a concession*. Hell, considering that your Death Curse is basically the entirety of your life's energy, and your Aspects are basically a summation of your character's life in total, I'd let you invoke every single one of them if you've got the Fate points for it.

* I say "offer a concession" because, while the rules don't actually specify this, the novels make it pretty clear that it's possible to kill a wizard so suddenly that he doesn't have time to get off his curse--which says to me it probably requires an action and can't be done in the instant before you apply the stress from a hit that takes you out. In other words, it's a concession, but the terms you dictate have to be "I die, but I get my death curse off first."

As for the idea of the sponsored magic: I just remember how Harry was thinking of using some of those sponsors to the brink of death, or even using them as part of the curse, which is why I even considered it. I can imagine pouring Hellfire into a curse that causes plenty of destruction or misfortune, our Soulfire to do something "for the greater good." I can also see some other forms of sponsored magic being potential fountains of fuel, so to speak: pulling from a leyline to really hammer out that curse (especially a generational curse), or using your last moments as the Winter Knight to inflict as much harm as possible upon your foe. Again, I can see the possibilities here, especially since a Death Curse is usually used as a last resort. Any thoughts on this? And if you would use that as an option, what sort of impact do you think it would carry (i.e. more shifts, extra shifts on a certain goal, some other effect)?

Oh, I'd definitely allow it. You'd have to cap it at some point so the player doesn't just call a billion shifts from his sponsor and break the world, but I'd allow it. I'd say a good guideline is no more than 20 shifts from sponsored magic--the equivalent of a full extra set of consequences.

Oh, and thanks for coming into the conversation, Kordeth. I can respect the idea of putting the raw power as the difficulty to break the spell, but I do have to stick with Deadmanwalking; Death Curses are supposed to be extraordinarily potent as it is taking the life of a spellcaster to do it. These sort of things should be over the top in their own way. If anything, I'd probably end up house-ruling to make it even harder to break a Death Curse, if only because of the cost behind it.

I don't think they really need to be that much harder to dispel, considering that most death curses are probably either massive damage or effects designed to inflict extreme consequences. Remember that consequences can't start "healing" until the proper conditions for recovery are met--you're free to say the extreme consequence from a Death Curse has no such condition (or that it's a deus ex machina condition like a favor from Mother Winter or the blessing of a god). The extreme consequence slot should reset, but the Death Curse altered Aspect might be stuck that way forever.

Now I need to ask about the Cashing Out rule. Would you still get those points after tagging your own consequences, as they are considered to be compels of the consequences that took you out of the fight? And would you still be eligible for those Fate Points since your character is now dead?

You always get the Fate points from cashing out if you concede or are taken out. Remember, tagging does not cost Fate points; you're getting those for free, plus the "effectively a compel" points from cashing out. See above for why, IMHO, Death Curses can only be triggered on a concession, but if you choose to allow the Death Curse when you're taken out, then you should be allowed to use them.

[Crion]

I don't think they really need to be that much harder to dispel, considering that most death curses are probably either massive damage or effects designed to inflict extreme consequences. Remember that consequences can't start "healing" until the proper conditions for recovery are met--you're free to say the extreme consequence from a Death Curse has no such condition (or that it's a deus ex machina condition like a favor from Mother Winter or the blessing of a god). The extreme consequence slot should reset, but the Death Curse altered Aspect might be stuck that way forever.

I've been thinking about this one for a bit, and remember the situation from Blood Rites where we got to see some notes on a death curse.

*Spoiler to those who haven't read Blood Rites.

(click to show/hide)

LeFay's Death Curse left Lord Raith unable to "top off the tank" when it came to feeding. This could have only be broken by killing the last of her bloodline, and it could be considered to have needed He Who Walks Behind to bring to completion.

With this example, I'm not certain if this was a long duration maneuver (as it could have been dispelled with a ritual) or an extreme consequence with an Aspect change that could only be fixed by completing that story arc. I think it can fall either way.

Now that I'm thinking about it a bit more, the idea causing a lasting/permanent change requires one to be able to blast by the best roll, defenses, stress track, and add the level of the desired consequence. This does make me wonder if the target does take all of that stress, or is it just the difficulty to inflict that consequence.

My thought is simple, as in my mind it's a story/thematic approach: could the Death Curse that is powerful enough to inflict an Extreme Consequence just change an Aspect instead? I know the only time we've seen a curse in action was in Dead Beat, and Harry did pass out when it was done ("taken out" perhaps, or just on his last legs from nearly be disemboweled?), but I find it to be rather cheesey if a Death Curse knocked a victim out in some way (especially since some curses, like the one in the spoiler, would be hard to describe on any of the standard stress tracks).

Again, just a thought. Feel free to agree or disagree as you see fit.

[Kordeth]

My thought is simple, as in my mind it's a story/thematic approach: could the Death Curse that is powerful enough to inflict an Extreme Consequence just change an Aspect instead? I know the only time we've seen a curse in action was in Dead Beat, and Harry did pass out when it was done ("taken out" perhaps, or just on his last legs from nearly be disemboweled?), but I find it to be rather cheesey if a Death Curse knocked a victim out in some way (especially since some curses, like the one in the spoiler, would be hard to describe on any of the standard stress tracks).

Again, just a thought. Feel free to agree or disagree as you see fit.

Remember that when you take someone out, you get to dictate how it happens. If you think it's cheesy for the Death Curse to always knock someone out, don't dictate it that way.