Author Topic: Hero of their own stories in popular media  (Read 5686 times)

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2009, 08:33:36 PM »
I mean when you, neurovore, refer to 'writing' what are you really referring to? There are so many aspects of writing: character development, plot development, pacing, literary devices, voice(s), etc.

It's been years since I read it, and I disliked it enough that I'm really unlikely to go back and reread at this point, so there's a limt to how far I can take this, but as I recall; the prose was uninteresting, and the accuracy of the historical period (to be fair, I'm a hard sell on this one as I happen to know a fair bit about it, probably more than the average reader) is blloody awful; the people think far too much like moderns. 

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And it's a taste thing, to boot.

I reject that one a priori; if all there is to Qualitiy is individual taste, nothing can ever be made any better, so there's no point in trying.

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But no, I'm not going to categorize people's work as "bad" or "good" or "rotten" because there is bad and good in every piece,

I don't agree here too; there are a handful of books I see no bad in, and probably a larger number in which there is no redeeming feature.

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So sorry, but I just disagree that judging is something you 'should' do in Author Craft.  You can, surely, but 'should', nah.  I prefer discussion to blatant dissing on people's work, personally.

I really don;t see any way to become a better writer that does not start with seeing what's bad and what's good and then figuring out why; nor do I think analysis of why a book fails is necessarily "blatant dissing" - it's nothing personal, it's nothing to do with a personal opinion of the author, it's just the same sort of critique I want of my own work; an honest assessment of what in it works or doesn't untempered by unhelpful false-kindness.
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kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2009, 08:35:35 PM »
-Payback is a decent Mel Gibson movie about a pretty evil dude looking to get some stolen money back. 

Payback, as Lee Marvin's Point Blank before it, is an adaptation of Night of the Hunter, the first of quite a long series about an amoral criminal by Donald Westlake writing as Richard Stark.  I've not read most of them - I prefer Westlake's comic mode - but they're a good example of what this thread is about.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2009, 08:39:59 PM »
I cant think of any titles off-hand, but I seem to recall several books that are from the POV of Jack the Ripper. 


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Offline LizW65

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2009, 12:45:58 PM »
Payback, as Lee Marvin's Point Blank before it, is an adaptation of Night of the Hunter, the first of quite a long series about an amoral criminal by Donald Westlake writing as Richard Stark.  I've not read most of them - I prefer Westlake's comic mode - but they're a good example of what this thread is about.

The first in the Parker series, mentioned earlier.  I believe the title is just Hunter; Night of the Hunter is a 1950's film starring Robert Mitchum as a murderous holy man, which also qualifies it for this list.
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Offline LizW65

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2009, 12:52:24 PM »
Road to Perdition, graphic novel and movie (the latter has some of the most gorgeous cinematography ever; anyone who can make things like vintage refrigerators look beautiful is doing something right.)
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2009, 07:23:44 PM »
does it count if the hero was so poorly done that I ended up cheering for the villain?   I know a few of those...  :P
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2009, 07:28:13 PM »
Does the Count of Monte Cristo and descendant antiheroes such as V for Vendetta count ?

A lot of what makes Monte Cristo endure as an archetype, IMO, is that Dumas got a very compelling balance of sympathy there between "this person has been wronged and wishes to avenge said wrongs" and "this person is actually unhinged"; too many subsequent antiheroes fail in the direction of "this person is sympathetic and therefore when they do something awful it's excusable by the extreme circumstances" rather than succeeding at "this person has done something awful so maybe we are not meant to be entirely comfortable finding them sympathetic."
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline novium

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2009, 08:26:03 PM »
a whole list of 'em here:

dreaded tvtropes link
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2009, 11:18:35 PM »
I wasnt even thinking anime, but two very good examples are DeathNote and Code Geass.  Both are stories told from the villain's POV, and both calculatingly and methodically bring the world to its knees, as a shadowy God of Death that can kill anyone any time, and one as an Evil Overlord building his Legions of Doom and ultimately his Sky-Fortress of World Domination.
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Offline LizW65

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2009, 11:30:35 PM »
a whole list of 'em here:

dreaded tvtropes link

And thank you SO much for posting a link to a site that I got lost in for hours, to the point of forgetting to cook dinner. ;D
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Offline ltgalloway

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Re: Hero of their own stories in popular media
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2009, 11:37:29 PM »
a whole list of 'em here:

dreaded tvtropes link

Awesome find. Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks and thanks to everyone else who have offered suggestions!