Author Topic: The nature of enchantments...  (Read 12984 times)

Offline Lord Nedd

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The nature of enchantments...
« on: November 28, 2006, 04:07:10 PM »
I have been really pondering recently about the nature of enduring vs non-enduring enchantments.

Has anything been added to the RPG that can shed some light on this?

Inquiring minds will eat raw flesh for this....

-LN
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Offline iago

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 04:20:43 PM »
That question's more in Rob's lab than in mine, at the moment.  Could you get more specific with your question?
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Offline Lord Nedd

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2006, 05:15:19 PM »
Sure.

On the spoiler boards I have catalogued some of the enchanted items that I have been able to find off the top of my hat ( You can laugh at my delineations, you won't be the first  ;D).

http://www.jim-butcher.com/bb/index.php/topic,1112.0.html

I suppose the question really is.  It seems that most spells unravel when the morning rises.  Why do some items such as Harry's ring, Harry's mana-belt, etc not unravel at the end of the day?

Does this elucidate any?

-LN
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 05:19:23 PM by Lord Nedd »
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Offline waywardclam

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 05:16:32 PM »
None of Harry Dresden's things disappear with sunlight (staff, pentacle, rod, etc...)
But MAYBE Lasciel will try to tempt Harry with the prospect of redeeming HER.
Wouldn't *that* be a powerful scene?

Offline Lord Nedd

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2006, 05:22:06 PM »
None of Harry Dresden's things disappear with sunlight (staff, pentacle, rod, etc...)

As far as I can tell, those are all focii not enchanted items per se.  His ring, his belt buckle of renewal, and perhaps the ghost warding charm are basically the only multi-day 'charged' items that I can remember.

-LN
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Offline rdonoghue

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 05:33:47 PM »
Ok, this isn't finalized, but just to give a snapshot of thinking:

Thresholds of time, which is to say sunrise and sunset, absolutely have a detrimental effect on magic, albeit not as detrimental as thresholds of space.  To my mind, this is addressable in one of three ways:

First, you can just not worry about it.  Put enough juice into something that it will hold together for a few days because that's all you need it for.  Most slapdash stuff will be done this way.

Second, engage in regular maintenance.  This is the magical equivalent of changing batteries regularly, and is really part and parcel of the offscreen puttering that goes long with being a wizard.  This is probably the most common, and easiest answer.

Third, you can "harden" the spell or object (almost certainly an object) so it doesn't worry about these things.  This is non-trivial, enough so that it's is probably more work in creation than the maintenance would be over the life of the spell/item.  Consider it like buying a car that will never need gas, but which costs you a few million dollars.  Sure, you never have to pay at the pump, but that's not really a cost savings.  This is mostly the answer for magical widgets that are going to be used by non-wizards, since they can't do much maintenance.

(Theoretically, there is a 4th - if your spell is near or in conjunction to some source of mojo, you could theoretically set it up to be self sustaining, but that is really just a specialized case of #3)

From a game perspective, this has the result of making magical widgets potent, important and common, but only if you're a wizard, which seems to be as it should be.  Now, this gets fuzzier when we're talking about spells rather than items - blessings and curses, for example, seem to have much greater mileage than some other effects, and we're going to compensate for that as best we can.

That help?

-Rob D.

Offline Lord Nedd

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2006, 06:17:49 PM »
Ok, this isn't finalized, but just to give a snapshot of thinking:

Thresholds of time, which is to say sunrise and sunset, absolutely have a detrimental effect on magic, albeit not as detrimental as thresholds of space.  To my mind, this is addressable in one of three ways:

First, you can just not worry about it.  Put enough juice into something that it will hold together for a few days because that's all you need it for.  Most slapdash stuff will be done this way.

Second, engage in regular maintenance.  This is the magical equivalent of changing batteries regularly, and is really part and parcel of the offscreen puttering that goes long with being a wizard.  This is probably the most common, and easiest answer.

Third, you can "harden" the spell or object (almost certainly an object) so it doesn't worry about these things.  This is non-trivial, enough so that it's is probably more work in creation than the maintenance would be over the life of the spell/item.  Consider it like buying a car that will never need gas, but which costs you a few million dollars.  Sure, you never have to pay at the pump, but that's not really a cost savings.  This is mostly the answer for magical widgets that are going to be used by non-wizards, since they can't do much maintenance.

(Theoretically, there is a 4th - if your spell is near or in conjunction to some source of mojo, you could theoretically set it up to be self sustaining, but that is really just a specialized case of #3)

From a game perspective, this has the result of making magical widgets potent, important and common, but only if you're a wizard, which seems to be as it should be.  Now, this gets fuzzier when we're talking about spells rather than items - blessings and curses, for example, seem to have much greater mileage than some other effects, and we're going to compensate for that as best we can.

That help?

-Rob D.

An interesting read.  However, let us look at the two items that we are perpetually powered items, the ring and the belt of renewal.

The belt and ring are emergency items that you will need at some undetermined future, hence it couldn't be either case 1.  Well, we know from canon that Harry has enchanted the ring so that everytime he walks around with it, it syphons off some of the kinetic energy for later.  Perhaps the belt works the same way as well, where it syphons off some of his reserves a little bit each day he wears it.  Both of these items could possibly have been case 2s.  However, as they both were improved incrementally, it is slightly different.

Are they case 3 or 4?

Perhaps they are a case 4 then as both these items syphon off a bit of energy from Harry Walking to maintain the spell and improve the vessel energy.

The next question is whether or not you need to have a human source generate sufficient energy to feed into the vessel or could it be down with simple mechanical means such as a pendulum?
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Offline rdonoghue

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2006, 01:18:03 AM »
Well, here's the cheat - so long as a reasonable case can be made for an explanation (as is the case with both 2 and 3/4 here) then the best answer is th eone that works best for play, which is often going to be #2.

My litmus test is this: do we imagine that, if Harry were to hand the item over to someone else, it would continue to function?  I generally answer "no", partly because I think there's a component of being a wizard to make them go, and partly because if he _could_ do that, and in all this time he hasn't given Murphy _something_, then he's kind of a tool.

Now, part of the power of #2 is that it's very, very vague.  Does the item need time in the lab, tunig it up?  Does it need to stay within the wizards aura? Does it need to be occaisionally dipped in puppy blood?  On one level, this is purely color: since we're talking maintenence that has to be done occaisionally, it's easy to just assume the wizard does whatever he needs during downtime.  Sometimes these can be plot seeds (Your usual source of puppy blood isn't answering calls, and wasnt' that fire you read about near his shop?) but the last thing I want is to turn every possible magic gimmick into a bookeeping extravaganza. 

That's a strong case for #2 and #3, but #3 has it's own problems.  Most of the abusive scenarios that i can immediately conceive of for magic items are at least moderately curtailed by "It's hard to make something that works without you keeping an eye on it."  This won't stop every abuse, and frankly I don't want to - coming up with creative uses of magic is half the fun.

So ultimately, there are three goals:
* Be consistent with the books
* Minimize bookeeping
* Cut down egregious abuses
* Makes for a good story/game

And those are the goals that lead to that sort of breakdown.

Now, here's the other really dangerous part.  Magic in the books has its own rough sort of physics, and in an ideal universe, we could express those principals so clearly that the capabilities of magic are as clear as the extent of physics, and it will be as obvious that a threshold stops power as it is that you can't jump to the moon.  That's not entirely doable, and it creates a dangerous situation where we have an incomplete set of rules.

Figure day to day physics has a lot of implicit checks on crazy things we might want to do, and we naturally understand them.  Magic is the same way, and when presented with a magical proposition that takes advantage of the rules we have and has no apparent check, that's when we need to start thinking like Jim.  See, for all the magic, the Dresdenverse _hasn't_ been split in half by some wizard's perpetual motion machine or magic eating tribbles or god know what else.  Some of that is because if you do something like that, someone will probably punch you in the face, but mostly it's because the world of magic is robust and dynamic and because Jim can make stuff up that fits within the _less_ strict logic of the setting.

Which brings us back to sunrise.  Really, do you know what spells are disrupted by sunrise?  The really inconvenient ones.  Oh, if you've got a black belt in Dresden Logic, as Jim does, you can easily enough justify it according to some nuance or detail, but the reality is that it's a decision that mostly hinges on what makes a good story, or in our case, game.

And that's why you'll find some waffling.  If we lay down specific details without the whole supporting web of logic behind it, we're begging for trouble, and honestly, I get enough trouble from the shield bracelet that I don't need to hunt for more. :)

I realize that's not entirely satisfying because, frankly, it's kind of cool to think "Ok, if magic can get energy from kinetic energy, I'm going to hook up a feed to the interstate and get a little energy from each car passing, and have a limitless supply of whupass."  But there are at least 3 reasons for that not to work, possibly many many more, and until we give the tools to make those reasons transparent (and more specifically, the tools to deal with it in a better way than just saying "no"), we're only telling half the story, and doing a grave disservice to anyone looking to play.

-Rob D.

-Rob D.

Offline finarvyn

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Re: The nature of enchantments...
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2006, 02:20:09 AM »
Thanks for the great post, Rob. It's nice to see your take on how magic works in the Dresdenverse.

So ultimately, there are three goals:
* Be consistent with the books
* Minimize bookeeping
* Cut down egregious abuses
* Makes for a good story/game
I also got a smile out of this. One, two, three, another three.  ;)

Reminds me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Arthur: "One ... two ... five!"
Knight: "Three, sir!"
Arthur: "Three!" (lobs the holy hand grenade of Antioch)
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