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Messages - Froklsnt

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1
DF Spoilers / Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« on: October 16, 2017, 04:19:39 PM »
Hmm back to the original question. I agree, I do think there was a lot more going on in this fight than Harry realized. After the fight, Eb himself says after Harry recognizes Vadderung that he [Odin] rarely gets involved these days but when he does, something big is about to go down.

On a grander scale, this was the Home Team neutralizing the Outsiders’ opening salvo - as others have pointed out, the fight involved the coming together of many different factions against the RCV, because the Ramps had begun to ally themselves with Outsiders, allowing TWG to intervene more directly through the KoTC & Uriel.

So this fight was essentially a proxy fight between the agents of TWG & the Outsiders using agents & cats paws. Since the home team won, the Outsiders resort to plan B which we see in any cold Days (breaching the prison on Demonreach).

I think that you've got it. But in addition to the TWG, this was also the chance for Mab and Odin to also take direct action against the Ramps / Outsiders / Blank Council. All of them grafting themselves onto Harry's cause as a convenient excuse to make a strike they desperately wanted to make anyway. And the best insight you added was that Cold Days represents plan B for this side after CI fails so spectacularly.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Cowl teach....
« on: October 12, 2017, 04:40:19 PM »
How much have we explored the idea that the Mavra we know is actually a puppet being operated by Cowl and Kumori? I suppose it makes the scene at Bock's in DB a bit problematic, but it fits together pretty well otherwise.

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DF Spoilers / Re: What will Harry Learn
« on: October 12, 2017, 04:36:57 PM »
I think there's another major one you missed. In Changes, learns a LOT more about the direct application of will, as opposed to using it to perform magic. And he starts applying that knowledge when he manifests a body at the end of GS, and again vs both Mother Winter and HWWBf (at Demonreach) in CD.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Who was the real target of the bloodline curse at CI?
« on: October 12, 2017, 04:19:46 PM »
If we're getting conspiratorial about CI, then the question isn't "Who were the Reds aiming it at?"  The question is "Who were the Black Council aiming it at?"   The reds, with their ties to so many likely N-fected individuals and the Outsiders, were in deep with whatever the overarching conspiracy involving the Outsiders is. We do ourselves a severe disservice if we think about this only in terms of the Red's enemies.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Who if anyone will Harry save in Mirror Mirror
« on: October 10, 2017, 12:22:35 PM »
I'd expect Harry to end up a halfway-decent necromancer. Maybe he could even pull off the life-saving trick that Kumori used in DB. As for the who... I agree that the victims in WN seem like the best candidates. At least one of the girls in BR seems doable. Maybe Meryl (SK), but she mostly sacrificed herself. I don't think he'll save Morgan because I expect them to be more avowed enemies in MM.

One more idea which has all sorts of crazy-fun implications: Lily.

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
« on: October 06, 2017, 07:14:14 PM »
Restating the proposed scenario, in light of the discussion we've had, integrating some of Griffyn's ideas:

Let's imagine a scene, at the beginning of Small Favor. Mab has entered Harry's mind, and is approached by Id Harry, who has the relatively recent task of watching over the newborn Bonnie. And Id Harry and Mab begin to deal. IH wants Harry's immediate survival, protection for Bonnie, and a chance to get laid. Mab wants Harry as Winter Knight, and also wants to earn Harry yet more power. Mab sees someone she can work with. So, the bargain is struck, and a relationship begun.

Id Harry will guide Harry ever closer to taking Mab up on her offer of Winter Knighthood. This will aid in Harry's survival and further amass power to help protect Bonnie. Plus, being WK definitely ups the chances that Harry will finally have some sex. More generally, the WK mantle will increase IH's power over what Harry does, as it encourages Harry to pursue his more animalistic, base tendencies. To enable IH to help further with these goals, Mab will give IH the ability to hide Harry's memories from himself.  IH is responsible for hiding Harry's fire magic for most of SmF, at Mab's behest as part of this deal.

On Demonreach, during the final battle of SmF, IH sees an opportunity to win further favor with Mab. Before Michael goes up into the helicopter, IH guides Harry's hand during a distracted moment, similar to when Harry picked up the denarius instead of Harry Carpenter (DM), or when Mab made Harry stab himself (SK). IH take's Thorned Namshiel's hand from Michael's pouch, and stows it away in one of Harry's pockets, unbeknownst to the conscious Harry.

At the conclusion of SmF, in the hospital chapel, Mab enters Harry's head again. IH presents his gift to Mab, the fallen who assaulted her castle. He is rewarded with a Winter boon, a fine-wrought silver snowflake pin, analogous to the leaf pin Harry received from Summer for his efforts in PG. IH is wearing this pin on his lapel next time we see him, in SG. With Demonreach in the discussion, IH mentions his sight visions to Mab. They further their bargain, adding the goal of guiding Harry becoming the Warden of Demonreach, newly within Harry's capability thanks to the gift of soulfire.

In TC, IH and Mab coordinate their efforts to assure that Harry moves towards the island. IH prevents Harry from confronting Shagnasty directly, by blocking out Little Chicago at a crucial moment and making sure Bonnie triggers a headache when Harry goes for Mouse. Instead he puts the idea in his head to take Morgan to Demonreach, and to perform a Sanctum Invocation. He is Harry's intuition, after all. Mab plays her part here as well, intimidating Bob into silence over why Harry isn't using LC. Since Lea was still a Sidhe-sicle, Mab could come and go as she pleased from the Harry's lab during TC, through Lea's garden, assuming she meant no harm. And Harry only goes into the lab the one time in that whole case. Plus, Mab foresees a side benefit of terrifying the little air spirit; he'll ask Harry to prepare a second vessel as a bolt hole, which will then be in place for when Bonnie is born. And since Mab knows Harry has access to Bob, she can be confident in CD that he has access to the info on how to kill Maeve.  Furthermore, Mab helps guide Molly towards the skill level and power she will need to perform the "delivery" of Bonnie.

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
« on: October 06, 2017, 01:20:00 AM »
Her strolling into the lab and circling the table, her eyes on his skull as she traces her fingers along the model's skyline, would be enough to have him moting in his occipital region, if you know what I mean.  Getting him to agree to not mention the model for Harry's safety would be child's play.

I like how you think  ;D

When you put it that way, the whole proposal makes more sense. Not to mention that it makes Mab's request to kill Maeve more reasonable, since she knew Harry had access to the knowledge about how to do it.

I'm not a huge time travel advocate either, but I'm up for the discussion.

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
« on: October 05, 2017, 09:18:48 PM »
Except that if it were just Id blocking the memory of LC, there'd be no reason for Bob to not say, "Hey, boss, why are you doing those tracking spells on the floor?  Why not use Little Chicago?"  To which Harry would say, "Huh?"

Even if it was another case of the tarp-spell blotting out any reference to the subject (a la Harry hearing garbled noise at the phrase "blasting rod"), Bob will still notice that Harry wasn't replying to his questions.  And he would have brought it up.

So there has to be another reason for Bob to also not suggest using LC.  Either Mab did it, and intimidated Bob into silence, or LC was just broken at the time.  The latter seems unlikely, as you'd think there'd be some dialogue expressing his frustration that the one tool he needed right then wasn't working.

You're right, Bob is implicated. That was actually the discussion that brought this theory about. Bob missing LC is odd. The lack of any dialog about LC at all is odd. Mab had access to the lab at this time, (assuming she meant no harm) so it's possible she's involved. I'll admit it's more of a reach though. I also tried to tie Bob's request for an extra vessel into the OP, but that might be pushing it too.


I shouldn't be surprised that any post about LC and Id Harry eventually turns to time travel. There's nothing to rule it out, and it's hard to deny the ties and resemblance. However. It's really only TC where Little Chicago goes unused, unmentioned, unseen. It's used in SmF, mentioned in SJ, gone in TC, back in Changes. Is the implication that there's time travel in TC? If so, why the timing that blocks him from finding Shagnasty? Why does that sync up with the Bonnie headache that blocks the same thing with Mouse?

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
« on: October 05, 2017, 02:50:45 PM »
Two things.

First, I think it was Mab that manipulated Harry's memories.  She's got the ability to run roughshod over him.

Second, I think even if Id had been the one to actually conceal the memories, Mab could still say that she took them from Harry, as long as Id was acting in her name.  It's like how Harry was responsible for Aurora's death, even though she was killed by dew drop faeries.

I agree with you that someone acting on Mab's behalf is the same as saying Mab did it. It's just how she did it.

The reason for suggesting that Id Harry was responsible for the memory manipulation is that it explains what was going on with Little Chicago and Mouse in TC without Mab having to meddle with Harry again directly. I find it compelling to match the blasting rod under a tarp in his mind in SmF with the tarp described as over the table with LC in TC. But he remembers LC in the Side Jobs stories between SmF and TC, so Mab couldn't have done it in SmF. If LC has been cloaked from his memory by the time of TC, then either Mab found a way to hide it which left no trace at all of her presence in Harry's memory, or someone who was already in his head did it. The second option seems simpler, and has the bonus of matching up better with Bonnie headache used to distract Harry from Mouse in the same timeframe.

The concept still holds up if you say Mab was directly responsible for hiding the blasting rod, and then Id Harry, copying her technique, is responsible for hiding LC. It just seems like added complication.

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
« on: October 05, 2017, 02:11:34 PM »
I found one other potential issue with the theory in the OP, though it might be alright. Mab's words about what she did with Harry's fire magic:

Quote from: Small Favor - Chapter 46
"The I was right." I said, accepting [the blasting rod] "You took it, and you took the memory of it happening."
"Yes"

"Why?"
"Because I deemed it proper." She replied, as if speaking to a rather slow-witted child. "You would have risked your own life, and my purpose, to protect your precious mortals had I not taken your fire from you."

The OP theory asserts that the actual hiding of the memories was performed by Id Harry, acting on Mab's behalf. Are her above statements still true enough if that is the case? I'd say yes, but it isn't cut and dry.

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
« on: October 05, 2017, 02:02:53 PM »
Namschiels coin was confirmed on the helicopter gryffn.  Or at least somebody's was.

Just re-listened to the pertinent sections. The hand goes into Michael's pouch, and hasn't been seen since. The next time they looked for it was at the hospital, at which time it was missing. The purposed theory in the book in that someone took it in the helicopter, as they got Michael out of his gear. But no one is stated to have seen it at that time. That would put the suspect list as Sanya, Marcone, Hendricks, Gard, and Luccio (Ivy was unconscious). However, there is a period of relative calm in the remnants of the lighthouse, before the helicopter arrives, and Harry is there. Harry swiping it is at least possible. Michael still had his pouch at the hospital (Sanya says so), so it would have needed to be one very smooth pickpocket job, but it's possible. Maybe while Michael was putting the harness on.

The snowflake pin being a Winter boon fits so well that it's headcanon for me now, which means the theory in the OP needs some reworking. The coin fits very nicely too. However, that part doesn't explain near as many odd loose ends as the rest of the theory did.  So I might modify the idea to include two meetings.  The first meeting happened as stated above, at the beginning of the book, but the pin is no longer part of the deal. Instead, Mab visits with Id Harry at the end of the book, tells her of his extra gift, unplanned, and is given the boon.

One detail of Griffyn's thinking I disagree with though. I don't think that Id Harry would have any desire to one day be rid of the mantle of Winter Knight. For one thing, he doesn't plan that far ahead. But moreover, why would he want to stop being Winter Knight? How is that not a near-total good thing from his perspective? It gives him more say in Harry's actions, gives him more power and better ability to protect his children. Resentment of Mab may come eventually, but as I said, it isn't in the Id's nature to think that far down the road.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« on: October 05, 2017, 12:55:37 PM »
I think it's a lock that Mab had an interest, because the Reds have made a habit of summoning Outsiders while on the ways through Faerie to aid them in battle with the WCW. That is a significant insult to Mab in my eyes. Careless too, and undermining of her war efforts. The reds also play into the founding conspiracy of the series somehow, with the schemes around creating a starborn, which ultimately led to Harry. Ariana's presence at that dinner with Lord Raith, Maggie, and Eb is evidence enough to convince me of that. Whether that conspiracy is the same thing as the Circle or BC or Nemesis remains to be seen, but it is certainly another major dark center of power, however it identifies.

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DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: October 05, 2017, 12:43:51 PM »
Ivy is mortal, as evidenced by the death of so many in the lineage. As long as she isn't put in harm's way, there's no reason Ivy couldn't take direct action.

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.
« on: October 05, 2017, 12:41:09 AM »
I hadn't made the connection between the pin and the Summer broach... Hmm... The descriptions of fine wrought detail are very similar. Tying in the lost Denari is a good observation too, that is a real possibility.

I'm not sure the ideas need to be mutually exclusive. It seems reasonable to me that the two may have more of an ongoing relationship than a one-off deal. The pin wasn't vital to the theory in the OP,  just a bit of corroborating evidence.

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DF Spoilers / Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« on: October 04, 2017, 08:16:13 PM »
Heh. Maybe Molly messed with his head.

Doesn't Harry mention having a headache in Ghost Story, then insisting that he's allowed to have headaches anyway? Maybe that was another memory gap he stumbled upon that carried over to his soul walkabout.

Fun idea, I'll look for that on my next through GS.

I'm still not sure why this would happen in Turn Coat without Mab's direction. Bonnie would have to not only be aware of the situation, but be able to steer Harry toward Demonreach. Why would Bonnie even want to do that, assuming she had the ability to do it at all? It just seems like she's limiting Harry's options and putting him (and herself, by extension) in further danger, and I don't see the gain behind it, unless Mab (or Uriel, or someone) is cluing her into the whole situation, which I don't see happening.

I'm just not sure when Mab would've done this to him during Turn Coat. I haven't found any time that's unaccounted for yet. The only thing that makes sense is the nascent Bonnie's complicity, but that would require motive.

As we talk through this more, I think Id Harry makes a much better culprit than Bonnie. Molly admits to having met with Id Harry when she was in his head getting Bonnie out at the end of SG, so it seems entirely possible to me that Mab could have met with him any of several times she was in Harry's head....

In fact, let me grow this one more step into full blown WAG territory. I think this idea just wandered too far afield from the original purpose of this thread, I'm going to start a new one.


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