Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - LordDresden

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
1
Yeah, there is definite unresolved sexual tension between the two.

Agreed, it's been there since she was a teen for Molly and in recent years it's becoming mutual, and Harry is reluctant to admit this to himself for various reasons, some of them good reasons, some purely Harry-baggage.

Quote

I'm pretty sure the women Harry's made the most sexual comments about so far are: Mab, Lara, Molly and (odd one out) Andi. Typically the first time he meets one of them in any book (and often every other time they are in the same room as him) he has to go into detail about how great he thinks their bodies are. Then in Mab or Lara's case he has to remind himself they are evil and in Molly's case he reminds himself that he can never go there because of [insert excuses]. Followed by him checking out their arse again anyway or giving a detailed description of how Molly's nipples are noticeably pierced. 

Yeah, but that set doesn't go together.

Very nearly all males and many women automatically have that reaction to Lara, it's imposed from outside.  About the only way Harry could avoid reacting to Lara that way would be active use of magic or maybe certain drugs. 

Which is not to say he doesn't find Lara the human being attractive, because he clearly does.  But that overwhelming lust is independent of that.

Likewise, Mab is a special case, esp. now that he is the WinterK.  That attraction there is only partly sexual, though it's easiest to express in that form.  It's a mixture of awe, terror, respect, revulsion, admiration in the abstract (the way one can admire the beauty of a tornado or a shark), and ordinary desire for a beautiful woman mixed in.

His attraction to Molly, OTOH, is purely human.

Quote

His description of Corpsetaker in GS was also a strange look into his psychology. He starts of saying she is UGLY!!! (It's not spelled correctly without the three !!!), yet by the end of the paragraph has decided she must have been really attractive when she was younger. He's obviously got a thing for bad girls that he's in denial about. Not sure how his Andi fixation fits into that theory but there's a girl who needs to ask a certain Native American Senior Council member how to take her clothes with her when she shape changes.


His comments about Andi are simply based on the fact that she's exceptionally hot.  There's no particular mystery to it.


2
This I would dispute. We have heard from Harry and from Bob and from Eb that the WC has a policy of One-and-Dead for a reason - and that reason is that the effects are immediate and irreversible.

No.  Just no.

Nobody has claimed that the effects are always immediate and irreversible.  What has been claimed is that the risk of going further is big enough that high levels of risk are involved, hence the 'sponsor policy'.  The Council knows perfectly well that most warlocks don't instantly devolve to insanity, it takes time.

The trouble is that the path downhill is easy, stepping off of it is hard.  The Council knows that, too.

Quote

For all other offenses, there is a no-strikes policy. Molly would have been executed had political circumstances not aligned in just the right way. There is no jury deliberations or defense attorneys or mitigating circumstances or "degree of offense" sliding scale considerations.

It was also political considerations that brought about her near death.  Molly's trial was not typical.

3
When he's laying down the law to the winter court:
My voice echoed throughout the whole chamber as clearly as if I’d been using a PA system. “All right, you primitive screwheads. Listen up. I’m Harry Dresden. I’m the new Winter Knight. I’m instituting a rule: When you’re within sight of me, mortals are off-limits.” I paused for a moment to let that sink in. Then I continued. “I can’t give you orders. I can’t control what you do in your own domains. I’m not going to be able to change you. I’m not even going to try. But if I see you abusing a mortal, you’ll join Chunky here. Zero warnings. Zero excuses. Subzero tolerance.”
I paused again and then asked, “Any questions?” One of the Sidhe smirked and stepped forward, his leather pants creaking. He opened his mouth, his expression condescending. “Mortal, do you actually think that you can—” “Infriga!” I snarled, unleashing Winter again, and without waiting for the cloud to clear, hurled the second strike, shouting, “Forzare!” This time I aimed much of the force up. Grisly bits of frozen Sidhe noble came pattering and clattering down to the ice of the dance floor.


When I first read this I did a mental double-take. Harry committed murder there. Seriously, he straight up murdered a sapient being for the crime of disagreeing with him, and somehow it's okay because it was a Sidhe, not a human. And nobody calls him out on it. There have been other instances of speciesism in the series, but this takes the cake.

Did he commit legal murder?  No.  Mab gave approval.

Morally, Harry is in extreme danger, and he knows it.  Not long before he did that, he was musing about the danger of power corrupting, one little step at a time.  At the time he was thinking about the moral risk of sex with Sarissa, even with consent, under the peculiar circumstances, but it applies more generally.  Harry isn't unaware of the danger.

The problem is that it's also true that Harry probably really does have to behave that way, and do things like that, to enforce what authority he has in Winter.  Not enforcing his authority is suicidal.  Literally.  He very probably does have to be the Alpha Monster to keep the other monsters at bay.  Does that make it OK morally?  Not necessarily.

Note that we saw something similar in the short story Even Hand.  What Harry did that Sidhe noble, John Marcone did to a prisoner who started to waste his time with empty bravado.  The situation is not entirely similar, of course.  Harry was less in a position of power relative to the others than Marcone was to his prisoners, Marcone had more options available.  In each case, though, both men (who are very similar in some ways, psychologically, though they spin in oppositely) issued an order or asked a question, with either a stated or implied threat of death in the even of non-compliance, and then enforced that threat.

By declaring mortal 'off limits' around him, Harry hopes to protect them and himself from traps using mortals, the way Maeve tried to use Sarissa.  If the Winter Fae know that the moment they even try something with a mortal to get at Harry, he'll immediately go to DefCon 5 and nuke them on the spot, it provides an incentive not to make that attempt in the first place.  That helps avoid things like somefae grabbing Karrin or Butters or Billy and using him/her as a tool in a play against Harry...or so he hopes.

Since the warning has already been issued, Harry doesn't have to concern himself with things like boundaries or the fae claiming that he's just plucking Karrin's eyes out and it's no concern of Harry's, the warning's already in place so Harry doesn't need an excuse to act.  The fact taht it's a capital offense means that a fae has at least what should be a good reason to think carefully before trying anything 'clever'.

Harry has allowed himself to be put into a position where he may literally have no options other than behaving immorally or dying.  It's the latest link in a long chain of bad consequences stemming from a long chain of bad choices going back to his 16th year, and his ill-advised deal with Lea.  It was compounded by later bad choices, especially in Death Masks.  As Uriel keeps trying to pound into him (and is starting to penetrate), bad choices tend to give bad results.

The situation Harry (and Molly) are in now is also glaring proof of the wisdom of Bob's warning to Harry, way way back in Summer Knight, that wise mortal avoid getting mixed up with the Sidhe.  At all. For any reason.  Note that this is also the traiditional view of the Fae in myth and legend.

Did Harry take a step closer to corruption at the party?  Almost certainly.  Was it as  big a step as it could have been?  No, because his options really were limited.  But it was a step.


4
Obviously we have not seen an in-book example of this, but the way they are written lends itself to this exact scenario being "possible". The DV magic-effects-scale does not take intent into account. Any magic that kills - even if the intent of the spell was benign - irreversibly turns a practitioner into a warlock, inless it was self-defense. If Harry were to come across a person freezing to death, and use a spell to light a fire to warm them, but that fire subsequently causes a building to ignite and kill a homeless person inside, he's irrevocably tainted. The argument that he "inherantly believed that the homeless person should burn to death" falls apart since it was an unintended consequence, but the law and its rationale in the DV are absolute. He's a warlock and must die. Whether he feels remorse and that remorse messes up his mind, or if he simply chalks it up to "bad things happen and there's nothing you can do, but at least the freezing person's life was saved, so its a wash" is immaterial.

No, not quite so.  That's why the Council does have trials for Law breaking.  Circumstances do matter, esp. self-defense, but they take a really, really hard line on them (And human nature being what it is, politics matters.  Wizard A might be let off for the exact same actions that Wizard B gets nailed for, in the borderline cases, because of that.)

In the case of the fire, for ex, the Council would consider the circumstances.  Should the wizard have seen the risk of the fire getting out of control?  Were they in a situation where the fire getting out of control was freakily improbable?  That does matter, even to the Council.  After all, any use of magic sets in motion chains of events that sooner or later, somewhere or other, bring about a death that wouldn't happen, just as all actions do, even if only years later and after hundreds of links in the chain of events.

But the Council is hard-assed about it, precisely because they want Wizards to think carefully and act carefully with their power.  Think before you cast, and don't throw your power around trivially.  If you make a fire to warm a cold person, make sure it's inside a circle of rocks or on concrete, and don't do it in a tinder-box firetrap of a building.

The Council isn't nice about this...but where there's a lot of power things aren't always nice. 

Quote
But my point is that this has nothing to do with administration of justice. The WC does not execute wizards who have killed via magic as punishment or as a cosmic scale balancing. They do so because the person has become an irredeemable monster who will do nothing but inflict more suffering on others exponentially. Mortals have the concept of Justifiable Homicide. If a criminal is hurting someone and you take action to save the victim even if your won life is not in danger, but in the process the criminal dies, that's justifiable homicide. Do so with magic, and you need to die. That's according to Eb and has nothing to do with right and wrong.

True.  The Laws of Magic are less like law-enforcement in the usual sense, and more like a prophylatic measure.  Think of isolating a carier of a deadly, hyper-contagious disease away from human contact, with or without consent.  It's not fair, it may not be right that this person who did nothing wrong gets this treatment, but it may also be necessary.


5
DF Reference Collection / Re: Worst Kick in the Gut Moments in the Series
« on: September 15, 2012, 08:47:08 PM »
I find the suicides on Love Hurts really repulsive, especially the brother and sister one..

I mean, to have their mind/feeling tampered to belive something is good, to feel really good doing it, but on unaware level to know that is fundamentally wrong. I can't not imagine how low they would probally think of themselves for doing what they were forced to do, and even lower because they liked doing it. And not being aware that it is not their fault they are acting like that? That they aren't a terrible person.. 

And than the conflict inside their minds push them to suicide, and if they were christian, they would have died thinkign they were condemning their souls..

I don't think you can torture someone much more than that. Or of an act of evil much worse than that.

Hence the Fourth Law of Magic.

6
DF Reference Collection / Re: Worst Kick in the Gut Moments in the Series
« on: September 15, 2012, 08:30:20 PM »
That was the moment that sold me on the DF; it told me this was a series where things had real, serious, no-do-over consequences, for a character who up to that point had looked like a perfectly plausible ongoing cast member.  A couple of the other ones being quoted here are ones I admire, and found very satisfying as a reader, for pretty much the same reason.  (If a series wants me to remain emotionally engaged, there has to be the possibility of serious negative consequences to characters it wants me to care about; if defeat never happens victory is meaningless.)

I agree with this completely.

Further, the death of Carmichael was unnecessary, in the sense that it could have been avoided, and should have been.  His death was the natural consequence of various bad decisions on several people's parts, but esp. Murphy.  That very needlessness adds a flavor of reality to the story.

And yeah, it was a kick in the gut.


7
DF Reference Collection / Re: White Night body count.
« on: June 29, 2012, 05:29:27 PM »
I don't think this issue is that big of a deal.  I noticed it on my second read-through, years ago, but never thought it was worth bringing up except maybe as a throwaway comment here and there.  Now however, Serack is looking for all possible discrepancies in the Files, so I thought I'd lay it all out formally:

So let us look at the bodies:

1.  Janine.

Lives alone.  Apparently killed by despair.   Exodus 22:18 on her wall.  This means that Madrigal killed her, unless someone wants to suggest that the Skavis killed her and then Madrigal came later.  To me this complicates things needlessly;  Madrigal is too sneaky to invade another person's crime - he would just find his own victims.

2.  Pauline Moskowitz.

Mother of two, husband, two dogs.  Note that according to #1, the Skavis only attacks people who live alone or are isolated.  Doesn't seem like his MO.  Futhermore, Butters points out that she had equal cuts on both her arms, meaning that someone "helped".  I don't see this fitting the Skavis' profile either.  Surely he would want the victim to actually kill themselves in order to feed fully?

3.  Maria Casselli.

Had a husband and a younger sister living with her.  Again, against #1

4. Next two profiles.
 

Again, against #1

5. Jessica Blanche

Killed by sexual ecstasy.  Exodus 22:18 on her chest.  Obviously Madrigal.

6. "twenty people unaccounted for since last month"

Note that the only 3 bodies (#2) found are Janine, Pauline and Maria -- all those have been mentioned above, and don't appear to be Skavis work.

7. People who weren't actually dead

8. Anna Ash.  Pretty sure this was done by the Skavis.

Now the quotes:

#1
#2
#3
--------------------------------

There are two or three potential issues that come to mind:

1) Body count.

We have word of Anna that there are 20 missing/dead people in Chicago.  Subtract the dozen at Thomas' hideaway.  Subtract the "Several" (At least 4, or Harry would have mentioned the actual number like with the kids), and you 20-12-4 = 4.  Subtract Jessica, Janine, Pauline, Marie and the other 2 "living with family" that Harry found and you get less than zero.

So of the 20:
- 16 were actually saved by Thomas.
- 3 of the 5 killed were most likely Madrigal (Exodus and the twin-cuts from the knife), and the other 2 were living with others, so it's likely the Skavis didn't kill 'em.

Sure, you can say that maybe there were other victims that Anna didn't know about, but the "almost" community was pretty close-knit.  For that matter, if someone was really off the radar, how would the Skavis have known to target that person? So how many did the Skavis actually get (other than Anna)?   1?  2?

For a deadly creature, the Skavis doesn't seem so competent...

2) Living alone

Anna makes this whole production about being the "sole Ordo member living alone"; so much so that she is laying a trap with Elaine for the killer.  And yet, by the case-files that Butters shows Harry, two of the three members of the Ordo that are dead actually lived with others, and so did the other dead women.  Either this is a discrepancy in the story, or Anna/Elaine is leaving something out.  Possibly an extra clue leading them to believe Anna is the next target?

3) Infiltration
Note that in the count, the killer has been to six cities over the course of a year.  That gives you an average of 6 bodies per city, and two months per city.  Given that the disappearances in Chicago started happening a month ago, it sounds like "Priscilla" only had about a month to blend in.  Sure, she could have had letters of introduction or something like that to set up a persona, but wouldn't the "new guy" be under a leettle bit of suspicion if the murders started shortly after she came? 

Interesting, very interesting.  I hadn't considered that.

8
DF Reference Collection / Re: White Night body count.
« on: June 29, 2012, 05:15:45 PM »
I don't think this issue is that big of a deal.  I noticed it on my second read-through, years ago, but never thought it was worth bringing up except maybe as a throwaway comment here and there.  Now however, Serack is looking for all possible discrepancies in the Files, so I thought I'd lay it all out formally:

So let us look at the bodies:

1.  Janine.

Lives alone.  Apparently killed by despair.   Exodus 22:18 on her wall.  This means that Madrigal killed her, unless someone wants to suggest that the Skavis killed her and then Madrigal came later.  To me this complicates things needlessly;  Madrigal is too sneaky to invade another person's crime - he would just find his own victims.

2.  Pauline Moskowitz.

Mother of two, husband, two dogs.  Note that according to #1, the Skavis only attacks people who live alone or are isolated.  Doesn't seem like his MO.  Futhermore, Butters points out that she had equal cuts on both her arms, meaning that someone "helped".  I don't see this fitting the Skavis' profile either.  Surely he would want the victim to actually kill themselves in order to feed fully?

I don't think it makes any difference whether the victim actually kills herself or not for the Skavis to feed, per se.  It's the presence of the emotional state of despair that the Skavis uses to feed.  A Skavis wants his/her victim to be so despairng that he/she is actually capable of/willing to commit suicide.  Whether that emotional state actually translates into physical action is probably incidental, as far as feeding goes.  A Skavis could cause the death of a despairing person simply be eating enough of his/her life essence just while they sat in a chair and despaired.

(To compare, a Raith doesn't actually have to have sex with the victim to feed on lust, it's just that that's the easiest, most convenient, and most fun way to do it, since they need physical contact anyway.)


9

I mean, that situation is bound to be awkward. What would you have said if you were in her place? Would you have gone off on how much of a warlock she was, when you knew that wasn't what your date wanted to know about their mother?

Given their background, the respect she supposedly has for him, and the stakes of their world?  Yeah, I'd expect the straight truth.

Quote


 Hell, Luccio may have still been sort of hoping to get laid that night. You have to keep things in perspective.

I would expect that sort of thinking from a 20-something trying to get laid, yes.  But Luccio is a grownup, and is supposed to see Harry as the same.

10
Problem is, Harry knows almost nothing about his mother, he knows from the brief soul gaze with Thomas, Maggie didn't seem like a wicked woman.  Harry had a chance to ask Lea questions about his mother, but little information is given.   


Each one gave a tidbit, but there were several tidbits and they added up to a nasty picture.

Quote

However bad she appears to be, she never was so far gone that the love of a and for a very good man couldn't redeem her.

Which fits well with Harry's psychological romanticism, but doesn't really change what he heard from Chaunzoggoroth, Nicodemus, Thomas, Eb, and Lea.  And what they told him did add up to an evil woman.

Quote

He may just may not be able to come to terms that his mother might have been a monster, hence the non reaction.  It was hard enough for him to learn that Eb was the Blackstaff, and at that point in time he didn't know he was his grandfather.  Eb has said that Harry is a lot like his mother, but still he has very little of substance to say about her. 

Eb said that she broke the First Law, among others, and was using the Council's Laws against it.  In short, that she was a warlock. That's a pretty substantive claim, if true.

Nicodemus claimed to have known her, fondly, and her ability to create something like a baby version of a mindshadow tends to support that claim's veracity.  That's substantive, too.

Thomas didn't know much, but what he'd heard and remembered added up to, in his own words about their mother, "...one Hell of a dangerous witch."

And so on.  Harry had several sources and though each one gave him small pieces, the pieces added up to a picture.  Luccio's account is definitely the odd one out.

11
So Kumori isn't "regularly breaking the Laws"? She strikes me as very "misguided idealist".

The problem is the context of Luccio's comments.  That's what makes it so hard to reconcile wiht the other accounts from the other people.  You can do it, you can put interpretations on the other versions, and Luccio's, that will make them fit together...but you have to stretch things considerably because of the context.

The kind of 'misguided idealist' that Luccio described isn't the kind that would produce the accounts we get from Nicodemus and Thomas and Lea and Chaunzoggoroth and Eb.  It's not Kumori's kind of idealist.  Luccio talked about the Wardens being assigned to watch Margaret, and spoke of her disappearing for 5 years to be with Lord Raith, but there was no hint of anything about her being a warlock.  At all.

And Harry's reaction is just as weird, which makes me consider the whole conversation weird.  Even if what Harry thought he knew was all wrong, it's still what he thought he knew, you'd expect him to react to what Luccio was saying, at least in his own thoughts.  But he doesn't.

Imagine for a moment that you've spent your entire adult life combating some ghastly practice, let's say slave trafficing and organ legging and murder.  You worked against it as a private citizen in your younger days, and became successful enough at it that the FBI recruited you to do it as an agent.  Working to shut down the people doing it, and protect others from them, is what you've pretty much dedicated your life to doing.

Further assume that your mother, who died in childbirth, was as far as you know heavy into that very activity, she was a murderess, a slave trader, an organ legger, she associated with the worst criminals on the Most Wanted List on a regular basis, as far as you knew.  Your older brother, who can remember her, gives an account that corroborates this.  Some of the criminals you've taken on made references to working with her, some of the older FBI guys around you remember her as well, and their accounts are unpleasant and disturbing and match what you had heard elsewhere.

An old friend of your mother's, who has a psychological block that prevents her from lying, gives you an account that, again, tallies with the bad stuff.

But then, one day, you happen to discuss her with the FBI director, who was also in charge of the FBI back in the day, and his account is totally different, instead of a murderess and a criminal he talks about her being a war protester who hung out with a bad bunch for while, but mentions absolutely nothing about murder, slave trading, or anthing else of the sort...and the time-line of his account conflicts with the other versions.

Don't you think that under those conditions, you'd at least note that discrepency to yourself?!  That's the equivalent of where Harry was at the time of the conversation in TC, yet he doesn't even seem to blink at it.

Weird.

12
Luccio seems to be talking about only a part of Maggie Sr.'s life, the part when Luccio knew her. The stories seem completely compatible.

No, they aren't.

Luccio makes a reference to the time when Margaret disappeared for 5 years, presumably that was the period when she was with Raith, or at least that's what Luccio says to Harry.  According to Ebenezar, the hunt for Margaret by the Wardens was during and after that period, and that is precisely what Luccio doesn't mention.  Luccio acts upset by Margaret's selfishness with regard to Thomas, but totally ignores her warlock-dom.  Which is...kind of freakin' odd for the Captain of the Wardens.

When Harry asks her what the problem with Margaret was, he gets some stuff about her misguided idealism.  Nothing about her being a magical killer.  Nothing about her being a warlock who broke multiple Laws of Magic.  Nothing about her using the Laws themselves against the Council.

As leader of the Wardens, these are the things that would be primary for Luccio...yet she acts as if they never happened.

Quote

Maggie Sr. started out as an idealist, who was resistant to the White Council and pushy for change (This is the only part of Maggie's life that Luccio is talking about -- pre-renegade/Warlock). When Maggie realized she couldn't change the White Council directly, she probably started looking for allies elsewhere, establishing or joining some kind of Grey Council. Her efforts took her farther down the wrong-path, and the Grey Council turned Black. At some point, Maggie met Malcolm, realized she was becoming or had become a monster, and started trying to make amends. These latter events are the parts of Maggie's life discussed by others.

Doesn't work.  She has to realize she was on the wrong track, or at least fall out with her allies, before she meets Malcolm.  And there isn't much time for 'making amends', either.  In order to have had time to do the dark things the others refer to, she has to have been on that road for a long time.

I agree that she could easily have started out as a misguided idealist, but that stage can't have been long, not unless somebody's account is totally, completely wrong.

And no, it doesn't make sense for Luccio not to mention Margaret's rap sheet to Harry, because he would almost have to know something about it already.  Further, it's weird that Harry doesn't wonder about the discrepencies between everything else he's heard and Luccio's version, even in his own private thoughts.



13
Is it possible that Maggie used her death curse to kill herself at Harry's birth?  That she wanted Harry to group up a specific way?  She wanted Malcom to raise him and instill certain values in him, and she felt that her being around and alive just wasn't a viable way to do that?

We already know that she used her death curse to take away Lord Raith's power to feed, and I'm pretty sure it's established that Lord Raith used his sorceresses to kill Margaret with an entropy curse.

14
Misguided but Well-Intentioned Idealist (n) - see villain.  see also hero.

We'll be entering an election year here in the US soon and I fully expect that both parties will paint the other as villains.  And they're both right.  And they're both wrong.  Good and evil are opinions.

Not in the DV.  They are real things with real consequences, esp. when magic gets mixed in.

If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul.  It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells.  But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist.  She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.

This is why Luccio's account doesn't make sense, and why Ebenezar's does.

Remember, if Luccio is right, then there's no reason Margaret couldn't have turned to Ebenezar and the White Council for help and protection when she was on the run from Lord Raith.  She's pregnant, married to a mortal, and running from the White Court.  If she was just misguided, then she could go the Wardens for help, and she could pay for that help, too.
She would be a gold mine of intel about the White Court, after all.  That alone would be a good enough reason to protect Margaret from Raith.

But if she was a warlock, guilty of multiple major crimes, then her failure to turn to the Council for help makes perfect sense.  But that makes Luccio's account wrong.

15


The most important thing, though, is that Luccio's depiction of Maggie doesn't contradict any of that, it simply adds to it.

No, it blatantly contradicts it.

According to Ebenezar, Margaret was a warlock on the run from the Council, and under a literal death sentence.

According to Luccio, Margaret was a misguided idealist who the Wardens had been assigned to watch, and nothing more.  No mention of her being a warlock, no mention of a death sentence from Luccio.

Further, Luccio comments that Margaret simply disappeared for 5 years or so with no explanation, and presumably was with LR and had Thomas in that time.  Nothing about her being hunted afterward by the WCouncil and the WCourt at the same time.  None.

And Harry, in that same conversation, doesn't even notice the contradiction.  That's part of why I say that whole conversation is so weird.  It portrays Margaret as being something totally different than every other reference we've seen.  Either Luccio or Eb is lying, or else one of them is remembering events 100% out of synch with reality.  Yet Harry doesn't even react to the contradiction in his own mind.

That's why I call that conversation 'weird'.

Quote

Ebenezer himself told Harry that Maggie called him to Lord Raith's place for dinner and suggested an idea to him, an idea that he didn't want any part of, and that he thought she shouldn't want any part of, either. He said that this occurred shortly after Maggie had taken up with "that Raith bastard." So whenever Maggie's Lawbreaking occurred, it was after the scheme had been thought of and begun. Ebenezer was almost certainly not under orders to kill her at that time, or it seems doubtful that Maggie would have invited him to dinner with Lord Raith and Duchess Arianna.

No, but Luccio didn't mention her becoming a warlock or under death sentence at all.  She made Margaret sound like a misguided idealist, not evil.  Every other account, every single other account, implies evil.

Not that Chaunzoggorth said that Hell expected to get her soul, but she found redemption just before the end.  I didn't remember this last night, but that version also tallies with what Lea told Harry in Grave Peril.  Lea said that Harry's self-sacrficing, noble choices reminded him of his mother...at the end of her life.  After she changed paths.

The problem is not just that we have conflicting versions.  It's that we have a fairly consistant set of versions, set against one strange and conflicting one from Luccio.

Quote

And as I suggested in the OP-- well, if the group found themselves with access to a Gate to the Outside, what would they have done about it? Research on Outsiders was a beheading offense, so it's not like they could ask around within the White Council. They couldn't just start trying to summon Outsiders without any clue as to how to do it, because they weren't
It seems to me that Luccio's description gives us insight into why Maggie did the things she did and where she came from, while the others give us insight into the kinds of things she was eventually willing to do to achieve her goals. I was never suggesting that Maggie was pure as the driven snow, or even that she was just misunderstood. I'm sure she did some ugly things, once she came up with her plan and started putting it in motion. But from the example of the dinner Ebenezer had with her, the darker period of her life probably took place near the end, after she hooked up with Raith.

You can't just do 'ugly things' with magic and not have it change you.  That's why using black magic for good purposes doesn't work, or not for long, you lose the good purposes and it rarely takes very long.

Further, the accounts other than Luccio's say that the dark period of her life came first, then, at the very end, came something better.

Quote

All the sources agree, though, that she eventually turned away from her allies and left them. She eventually came to her senses, and realized that what she had intended to achieve was not what was actually happening. That's pretty much what it sounds like from all of the various sources. She may have been misguided and short-sighted, but she wasn't evil. Which fits perfectly with how Luccio described her.

Yeah, but every version other than Luccio's does suggest evil.  You have to take a really improbable interpretation of the others to make them even half-fit with Luccio's account, and Eb's account is totally incompatiable with Luccio's.

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5