Have we ever had any indication that people sail on the Sea of Ice?  I'm fairly certain that Max was referring to the sea to the west of Carna.

There is a difference between the cities themselves and the land around them.  "Riva" can either refer to the city of Riva or the whole region that is politically represented by Lord Riva.  Sure, Tavi is Rivan, but he doesn't live in the city of Riva.  When Ehren told Max and Tavi that he was being sent to Phrygia, one would guess that he was being sent to the city of Phrygia, which I suppose could be thousands of miles from the ocean, without negating the possibility that there could be Phrygian land touching ocean.

...You know what?  I think Jim screwed up that detail.  I think we should just throw this clue out, frankly.

I was thinking along these lines myself. While I think the remark was applicable to any body of open water that would be near phrydgia (after all, you can get seasick on one sea just as well as another), he could have well been referring to the city proper being that far from water, and not to the region itself.

Theres no way to *know* this other than just guessing, but it certainly makes things easier to visualize if we disregard it, or assume he is speaking of the actual city, and not the surrounding land.

By the way, here is the quote from Amara in FoC that Im basing my Calderon placement on, for reference, though Im sure you're already familiar with it.

"Are you familiar with the significance of the Calderon Valley?"

Amara nodded once. "It lies just over the isthmus between Alera and the plains beyond."

This, in my mind, puts Calderon at the very *end* of the land bridge, or at the beginning of where the new continent is starting to flare open to a larger landmass.  Just because its the only pass through the mountains doesn't mean the land its on or in front of it must be skinny...it simply means the mountains on either side of it must be impassable.

Revised the BW map:
http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3197405232/

Hey, looking good!  I really hope you dont mind, but I made a few notes, and just redlined them over your map. Its always annoying when someone does that, but its just easier to communicate that way...I apologize.


http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/6126/notesae3.jpg

1) This is what I was speaking about in my previous post.  If Phyrigia is indeed "thousands of miles from the sea" ( I really have trouble reconciling this...maybe Max was exaggerating, but we have no way of knowing), we're going to have to  significantly alter our image of the Aleran/ Iceman boundary and shieldwall.  One way to push Phrydgia further inland would be to move Placida up and out as a buffer between the coast and Phrydgia.

Regardless, it forces us to define the shieldwall as something that does *not* run coast to coast, as otherwise, if there are only two shieldwall cities, then both of them would *have* to be adjacent to water. Perhaps the shieldwall is an earthcrafted barrier bookended by one or two naturally impassable mountain ranges.


2) Ceres evidently needs to be in the Southwest, and its still slightly north of Alera Imperia right now.   In fact, I think all the "southern" cities need to shuffle counter clockwise a bit, and Alera Imperia need to move further north a bit  in order to make the "southern" region easier to define.  Theres another reason to move Alera Imperia a tad bit north as well, as Ill note in #3.


3.) I think Alera Imperia needs to get bumped up slightly north for a couple reasons.  One, if you move Placida over a bit, it can move up and take over some of that vacated space.  Two, it would make it easier to define Ceres as a southern/southwestern city. Three, the whole issue of Amara's flight...  I still think Riva/Calderon need to come down a bit to make it possible for Amara to have flown over the sea of ice.

 But check this out.  I read the passage you cited in AF about how Amara flew over the Sea of Ice to get to Calderon/Garrison.  But it says she flew along the *coastline* to the Sea of Ice, not necessarily across the water.  Since she was serving as a liason between the Crown and Bernard, her most probable origin point was the Capitol.  This is easier to reconcile...basically, as long as the Sea of Ice coast is more or less level with Alera Imperia, or maybe a little lower, its easy to see this flight.


4)Aquataine didnt make Jim's list of Southern Cities, so I think it has to come up to at least even with Alera Imperia, or a little north, and Rhodes moved a little west and up to ensure it stays adjacent to Aquataine at some point.  It might require a little fidgeting with Riva.


5) In FoC, Amara describes Calderon as being the valley *beyond* the isthmus/ landbridge into the marat territory, not *on* it.  More of a frontier.   This might be your intention, but the way the land gets skinny again after Calderon confuses the issue a bit.



Anyways, great continued work...I'm sorry for the notes...feel free to point out any errors in my thinking.  I think we'll find we're going to have to alter the shape of the land in some places to make all this stuff work.

Furthermore, if Ceres in in the Southeast, and coastal,  I don't see how the Elinarch can be in the southern portion of it, as Cyril talks about moving west to the Elinarch in CuF, and how the Elinarch is on the only bridge on the entire *western leg* of the Tiber.

Unless those remarks are all relative, and not absolute.

*Sigh*, I give up.  Somebody just make a map, and I'll paint it.

OK, I did some rough sketches trying to work out the "problem area", and they show, what I believe are the three options to reconcile the inconclusive things so far about Marat /Icemen interaction, as detailed in my previous post here, as well as some random things I was curious about in this region.  Bear in mind its just a rough idea of the landmasses involved for me to look at, not nearly as accurate as what Belgarion has done.

Sketch 1:

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8735/roughsketch1sy2.jpg

 This is more or less the accepted  vision so far with regard to Icemen/Marat connectivity, with two open bodies of water on either side of the isthmus.  I just took my cues from Belgarion's current map.  It's  sound in regards to the map clues we have so far and the easiest to visualize, but it's unsatisfying conceptually because it doesn't leave us much beyond the notion of seafaring Marat to explain the evidence for Marat/Icemen interaction.

 In addition to the various issues with this concept detailed here, it also calls into question the nature of the "Sea of Ice".  Is that name whimsical, or does it have a more literal basis?  Even if the marat were seafarers , could one actually sail across the "Sea of Ice"?   

In addition, there were a few other issues I wondered about that I marked on the sketch:

A.)

Also, there is a line in FoC where Amara flies over the Sea of   Ice to get to the Calderon Valley from in-country. That's part of the reason that the Valley's shape looks like it is

I was unable to find this reference in FoC, but I don't doubt Belgarion's knowledge on the subject in any way, and I defer to him.  If this is true though, even by Belgarion's current map, she really only could have flown over the Sea of Ice to Calderon if she was in the northernmost reaches of Alera.  I don't know what "In country" means, but I didnt get the impression she was in the north of the region.  If this is going to be a hard and fast stipulation, and we know for certain the northern watermass is the "Sea of Ice", then the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass must be moved way, way down on the continental map, in order to stretch the Sea of Ice far enough across the west of the region that she could realistically fly over it.


B.) Many of the current maps seem to be placing Calderon right on the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass, but in FOC, Amara describes the valley as being *beyond* the  isthmus, into the new territoy itself...more of a frontier.  This was one of the things I liked about Amadeus_rex's Calderon map, and followed suit here.

C.) Is there any issue with me switching the position of Phyridgia and Antillus?  It would make certain things in PF easier to visualize if Antillus is the Shieldwall realm closest to both the Icemen AND the Marat...however the Marat and the Icemen manage to interact.

Sketch 2:


http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2350/roughsketch2mo5.jpg

This is the most reasonable conceptual compromise based on what we know so far...some sort of land connection , probably near the polar region. This provides an option for a plausible means of Marat /Icemen interaction and avenue of travel for Doroga, without requiring us to believe  one thing or another, until Jim let's us in on some more details.

This has the result of making  the Sea of Ice an inland sea, which isnt a stretch at all. I mean, the entire Mediterranean is actually a landlocked sea with a number of isthmuses (is that the correct plural?) that, from the point of view of the inhabitants are connected only via that landbridge, canal, etc.

The continent next door is linked to the one Alera is on via a land bridge which is where you find the Calderon Valley--

This quote, while easiest to interpret as an open sea scenario, does not *expressly forbid* a northern land connection, as the word "only" appears no where in the sentence.  Of course, now we're into semantics. The truth of the matter is, I think it might be a case of a little bit of fuzzy thinking or incomplete explanation from the author.  Or at least, I *hope* it is , because I find the alternatives () conceptually unsatisfying.

Sketch 3:


http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2964/roughsketch3jn8.jpg

All sketch 3 really shows is a sort of contrived way to make sure all the pieces fit and adhere to the "letter of the law" in our current clues, and still provide a land connection.  It basically shows a little strip  of land walled off by mountain along the landbridge that the Marat and Icemen could conceivably interact  on, while still keeping Calderon and Alera walled off, and keeping the sea open.

No, I don't like it either, but it was really just a mental exercise to see if it was possible.


Anyways, any correction or comments about  my  thinking would be welcome.  I don't really *want* to be doing this...my limited time and brainpower would be better put towards illustrating the map, but these are just some sticking points for me.  Im really hoping Belgarion puts together a post -PF map that I can just glom onto.  I dont even want to try and decode the placement for all the southern regions.  In the meantime, Im just working on the decorative map backround and graphical elements.

[P.S.  I hope posting the images is cool. I used the img code and it seemed to be activated, so I figured it was ok. Its externally hosted, so there shouldn't be bandwidth issues as I understand it, but if this is a problem, just let me know and Ill edit them to links only]

 

I was also wondering if there had been any community updates since Princep's Fury.

Im interested in doing a high end fully illustrated Alera map based on belgarion's and other's consensus here, but was thinking an update might be in order after the new book.  I do this sort of thing professionally, and am no slouch at it, but I would want the most up to date consensus before doing something like that.


One thing I was wondering...In Princep's Fury, since it was revealed .doesn't it seem likely that the Iceman Lands and the Marat territory are actually connected in some way that would allow for independent contact of the two peoples? 


Current map thinking has the two lands separated by water, and we know Marat aren't moving freely through Aleran lands.  Sailing technology seems out of character for the Marat.  It sounds like maybe the two territories would actually be close enough for the Marat and the Icemen to have possibly had the kind of interaction necessary for