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Messages - redwizard

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DF Reference Collection / Re: Proven Guilty Mysteries
« on: January 26, 2015, 03:12:55 PM »
I recall frost forming on the blue beetle's windshield and on the wire fence at Wal Mart in Summer Knight.  That was Elaine's work and it was an attempt to make Harry believe someone in Winter was behind stealing the Summer Knight's mantel.  So I discount the temperature drop as proof that anyone from Winter put up the ward.

Slate was there as well, in fact I always took it he was responsible for the frost on the Beetle's windshield. He did attack Harry right after that. I thought the frost was part of Slate's attack. Blind the enemy the move in. The wire fence could have been either one, but since I prefer Slate doing that as well. It could be written off to Aurora, but I find it unlikely given Slate was present as well.

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1. We have been told that Nicodemus has a very specific target in mind, ostensibly kept in the Labyrinth of Daedalus.  What is Nic trying to get his hands on and why?  The blurb for SG had some info on this, and all answers that hit on what the blurb indicates as the target have been recorded before anyone could edit their answer to reflect its contents. -Serack

2. Nicodemus apparently called in a marker from Mab to get Harry on the team.  Does he have a specific plan for using Harry or did Mab twist his request?  Which of Harry's capabilities will he admit to needing, and (given that this is Nicodemus after all), which abilities is he scheming for Harry to use? Nicodemus has a specific plan with expectation of  Mab twisting the request. As far as the plan goes I see him needing most, if not all, of Harry’s abilities, especially Harry’s ability to think on his feet. It wouldn’t  be surprising to find out Nic wants Harry to carry out, or at a minimum plan, the intrusion on the mortal vault. He knows Harry will come up with something inventive with a high probability of success. I also think Nic is counting on Harry brining his allies along as well. It isn’t just Harry he wants, but the people Harry knows and counts on.
3. Jim has mentioned that the book will be "Ocean's Eleven".  Who else did Nicodemus recruit?  How will they interact with Harry? I think we can count on seeing some of the Nicodemus faction of the Nickleheads, as well as a couple of those who aren’t as close to him. Lasciel would be one, possibly with a new bearer. All concerned will be suspicious and waiting for the real party to start. Depending if Lasciel shows up with a new host that aspect would likely be trying for Harry because he would almost be guaranteed to be shocked and try to talk the holder into giving up the coin.

Harry's general method of operation is to call on his friends for help.  In this book, Harry is (initially) allowed one extra backup member on the crew.  Who will it be?  Which of Harry's other allies will "interfere" before the plot is over?  9/10/13 an interview was published that answers the first half of this question.  (edit:  Sort of)  Those that guessed what he said in that interview (at least partially) have been logged by the curators, but this will probably go down as some kind of extra credit or something, so keep Predictin!  (edit:  And things might not be binary simple...)-Serack     
I’ve mentioned before Nic is counting on all of Harry’s allies. At one point or another we are going to see Thomas, Butters, Andi in a break in (haha see what I did there.) role , possibly the alphas. 
5. This is a Denarian book, so (unlike the last "end of the world" showdown), the Swords will almost certainly be present.  In fact, there have been various hints...  Which Sword wielders will appear in the next book and how will their interference/help affect the plot?
Sanya will wander in and attach himself to Harry. He won’t be asked, but just be directed that way and Harry will accept his offer of help. Nic won’t like it, but will go along because Harry will insist Sanya is needed, what Harry will not say is only after Nic steals what he is really after and it is time to skin him alive. Murphy will wield Fid., but the sword of love will have a temporary wielder - not I think Michael he’ll come into it thinking he has to talk sense into Harry and and protect the temporary wielder - Charity. Michael will survive, but Charity won’t. 

6. Mab is apparently against Nicodemus succeeding in this heist.  In the Cold Days, we found that Mab had complex reasons for wanting Harry to kill Maeve.  What are Mab's reasons in this book?  Is it simple thwarting or is there something deeper? She wants him to steal what ever he really wants to, not what he has outright said he is after, but she doesn’t want him to keep it. I think Mab is running a game on Nic, she wants what he is really after possibly to pay back another debt or to bargain with a third party. I see it ultimately being of importance, possibly come the BAT. Mab also sees Nic as a dangerous being who could upset her plans she wants to neutralize him in the worst case, but best case is to make use of him because he is a dangerous being. She would be content with the fallen inside of Nic, but she would dearly love to have the combination of Nic and Anduriel working for her. I see it as something similar to her plans for Molly, the Mantle of Winter Lady wasn’t her first choice for Molly, but it was an acceptable outcome. Anduriel with a new host - one beholden to Mab and maybe even with something like a wizard’s lifespan would be a fine addition for her. I don’t think she would order Harry to take up the coin, but who knows who else she could con into it.

7. At the end of Cold Days, Harry needs to stay on the island to keep his growing headaches at bay.  The start of Skin Games implies that those headaches will need to be resolved by the end of the book.  Who or what is causing those headaches, and how will the whole thing get resolved by the end of the book? I think it is Lash. She will take over the new home Harry has constructed for Bob. Molly will ease the transition out of Harry and into her new existence.

8.  One of the key components of the "Ocean's Eleven" movie is that there is a final twist/reveal.  Given that we've got Nicodemus, Harry, Mab, and potentially Hades (and who knows who else) all trying to get the better of each other, if there's one thing you can count on it's some sort of last minute quintuple-cross.  What will be the nature of the twist and how will it all fall out? We see a new host for Lasciel, but Harry won’t tumble to it until later in the book - at least he won’t let on he knows, but will figure it out early on and use it to get out alive and successful. Of course it will be revealed what Nic is really after - Harry joining with Nicodemus among other things - as well, then
Harry jumps it all off by clipping Didre(sp?) for her actions in SmF. I even think it possible for him to finish the job and put Nic on the ark for keeps as well, although he won’t actually be the one to do it. For that I have my money on Murphy pulling a Connor McCloud on him although I think it unlikely. Nicodemus will continue to try to recruit Harry, right up until the end both because it would be expected and because Nic STILL wants Harry on his team as evidenced by him accepting Harry’s services as payment for Mab’s debt.
9.  (Extra Credit) There are many WAG ("Wild A$$ Guess") theories on the boards, some crazier than others.  Write up to three WAG theories (or make up your own) you believe are correct that will be confirmed (or at least have evidence in favor of) in Skin Games.
We could find out who fixed LC. Here is my answer, taken from this post : http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40467.30.html

I've never really cared much for the time traveling theories, especially where LC is concerned. I've posted before I think it was Lash and sub Harry who fixed it. Both had motive, neither of them wanted to be the confetti raining down on Chicago if the thing went boom, and the opportunity to fix it. Just before Harry uses LC to find Molly.

Lash starts messing with him, trying to convince him not to use LC. She says she wants him to take up Lasciel's coin, and she does. The thing about it is by this point she knows it won't happen then, if it ever does. She knows Harry well enough and is aware enough of the situation to realize a couple things. One, Harry doesn't have to have LC work in order to find Molly; a variation of a tracking spell would get the same results. Two, Harry using LC is just Harry showing off. Sub Harry knows this as well, and I think he has seen the flaw in the design. He might not know how to fix it, but Lash does. She can't actually do the work herself, but Sub Harry can. She distracts Harry while Sub Harry takes over the body and does the work fixing LC. Bob knows what is going on, and Sub Harry orders him to dummy up about how it got fixed.

Mab fixing could work as well, but I find that to be a stretch. She generally doesn't take such direct action, instead preferring to let some on she is testing (and that is exactly one thing she has going on in PG, she is testing Harry.) do on their own. True she sees Harry as important to her future plans. Her attitude is Boba Fett "He's no use to me dead." The thing about it, and I think Harry has mentioned this himself, she doesn't babysit. Could she have sent some one, yeah, she could have. I don't think Lea done the deed either, being a Sidhecicle would have made it kind of hard to pull off. Come to think of it depending on how involved Mab was in healing Lea - she was one of the frozen Sidhe Harry saw, she couldn't have fixed LC. 

Other characters seem less likely to me as well. First they would have to know LC existed in the first place, and I find it highly unlikely for that to have happened. Remember secrets are the Wizards heroin. Could they have been informed. Possible, but then again I don't see that as likely.

The only ones I see as having a more than enough motive and opportunity and the means to accomplish the task are Lash and Sub Harry. Lash distracts Harry while Sub Harry drives the bus.   

(Extra Credit) This is that "free form" question where you can come up with anything else you think will be in this book.  Specific quotes Harry might say (will he actually quote Ocean's Eleven?  The movie will have come out already in Harry's timeline)? Tidbits about the White Council? The fate of Molly? Write down anything you want.  Note that whatever you write must be specifically mentioned or hinted at in Skin Games in order to be worth credit. 

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Harry willingly, deliberately, and pretty much as knowingly as any mortal can, gave up his prerogative to make those calls for himself, and in this universe you can do that and such an agreement will supposedly be enforced. It's a cop out, trying to shield Harry in particular from the consequences of major blunders by authorial fiat, and it's no less a thematic issue from the book because a supposedly angelic character tries to make it out as anything to the contrary.

Now, I agree that this is no minor issue and would have have very problematic ramifications for earlier books. That's why I think the story jumped the shark when Harry made that agreement with Mab and when Butcher allowed the vow to Mab to be that all-encompassing. But I don't think we can just overlook it because we don't like the impact taking this problem seriously would have.

Molly was incredibly foolish. And I can't believe nobody ever seems to have warned her that Winter might take an interest in her or what the consequences might be of accepting their help. And Harry and the example he set and his associations with Winter seems to have had a great deal to do with all that. It doesn't appear that he ever gave her the kind of education in steering clear of Faerie entrapment she needed. And I liked her. More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.

Lany79 - People can talk about free will, but it's a funny thing. We have all the options we could ask for so long as we steer clear of the whirlpools, but once we choose to get too close, it's funny how how our options become extremely limited or just plain disappear. That's one of the sobering realities of free will: that we can and, indeed, must be able to do things we can't take back and that will have the worst consequences later on.

Harry never surrendered his free will. He has had his options reduced and in some cases radically, but he still has choices he can make.  He isn't an puppet for Mab, that much was made clear at the end of Ghost Story. She might make him wish he had surrendered his Free Will, or that he had chosen differently and stayed in the ghost version of the windy city, but she cannot take away his ability to make choices.  As far as it being a Deux ex Machina in regards to the consequences of Harry's actions,  GS was all about examining the consequences of those actions. Now we are getting to see them played out. This is what happens when you have the kind of career Harry has led. Your friends suffer because they help.

Who says Molly didn't know the possible outcomes in dealing the the Sidhe? First off she was well beyond the age of reason when she began her apprenticeship with Harry, so I would expect her to have some minimum reasoning skills (actually I would expect hers to be a bit above average because of her background). Now her decision making abilities were kind of questionable, but given the evidence available they improved some but not much. If they had, she would have stayed away from Chicken Pizza (as I have heard CI referred to and like the tag) entirely. She chose to go on that jaunt, yes Harry could have told her it wasn't the best idea and ordered her to stay, but he didn't. She has to own the responsibility for that because she knew and had been told it would be bad but still went any way.
And as far as her education she had the example of Harry and his dealings with them and probably his attitudes about them.

Actually what has happened has made thing a whole hell of a lot more interesting. Now it isn't just a boring save the world or universe proposition, anyone can do that. Now added to that is a struggle for a person's for their soul. Can they keep from becoming catchphrase spewing giggling villains and retain their humanity or at simply survive? To say he has jumped the shark, I just don't see it. I think this is a case of getting something other than what you thought you expected. The point is there isn't always the Disney ending where sunshine and rainbows fall out of everyone's orifices. This is noir and a series at that. Noir is gritty realism, at least the non campy comedic version, which means people suffer.

More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.

So what you are suggesting is this series shouldn't really be about Harry but about Michael Carpenter and his family. Maybe you should if it isn't entertaining you. Personally I like it when the characters I'm attached to get put through the grinder and sometimes ground up. Just out of curiosity, how would you liked to have seen Changes, GS, and CD play out?

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I don't believe that Harry has lost his Free Will. That's the whole point of people having Free Will, it can't be taken from us. Our choices might truly and well suck, but there are still choices. Someone like Mab wants Harry to believe that she's taken his Will to choose, because that's part of the game, part of the way to break people down.

I don't think Jim's painted himself into a corner, I think Jim has Harry exactly where he wants him, exactly where he was meant to be. I think it's another test for Harry. It's another cornerstone along the road to the BAT. Harry has already resisted the temptations of one of the Fallen. This is the next step in that journey. I think Jim wants to show us it's not the magic, the power or any Mantle that makes Harry special and makes him the guy to stop the mess the world is spiraling into. It's what Harry has inside him that makes him special. Harry the guy, not Harry the wizard.

Thank you. Free Will is what it is all about.

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If Mab wants Harry’s creativity, his insights, his best efforts, logically, she’s got it. All she has to do is order him to use his full abilities and he’s bound to. That’s what Harry agreed to. Which is why it’s absurd to me for Harry to be anything more than Mab’s puppet whenever she wants anything. In this way, yes, I think Butcher has written himself into a corner in the way he’s presented things. The only way to "get out" is to take shortcuts with the thematic content or even just the intellectual consistency of the books.

You seem to be arguing Harry has lost free will completely by becoming the WK. He hasn't, Uriel said as much at the end of GS, and Harry told Mab to tell him what she wants done and then get out of his way and let him do it. Harry is bound to Mab, but not her mindless slave. He can choose to ignore Mab, but would have to pay the piper for that choice, demonstrated in CD when he wanted to ignore the rules for prisoners with Lacuna.

Going back to the end of GS, Harry told Mab if she did turn him into her puppet then he would be a medicore knight because she would have to be a puppet master and pull the strings everytime she wanted something done. Actually I don't think he's written himself into a corner at all. It is the results of those choices that is one of the foundations of the entire series, and for Harry to have made any other choice would have backed the whole thing into a corner. In fact it was the best choice he could have made given the circumstances, anything else would have destroyed him either emotionally or physically. Sure he could have pulled a darkhallow, but I don't think he would have gotten it off, Murphy or the wardens would have stopped him. Taking up Laciel's coin wouldn't have worked, it wouldn't have given him nearly enough power quickly enough to do any good come midnight boom he would have been dead.

As far as Molly, well Mab was human once, and I think at some point along the line Molly learned enough to make her own choice. She didn't have to go to DR at the end of CD, or enter the circle. She could have stayed on the mainland or even the boat and been unaffected. I think she knew exactly what could happen when she entered the circle. And Mab only had her prepared to take a mantle as a back up. Sarissa was the one who was supposed to be the new WL. 

Her being a powerful magic user closely associated with the sidhe facilitated that. I think either Lea or Mab said something about that at the end of CD.

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The NN appears to function in two ways, at least with regards to opening Ways.
The first is the standard fixed point where two geographic locations are linked, i.e. the shed in Chicago and the one at the White Council headquarters. These are so easy even a caveman could do it.  They are also the most common ones.

The second, is the type described by the quote in the first post in this thread. They are what I think of as directed Ways. They depend on all of the qualities Harry mentioned as well as a significant investment of will. The one opened to CI for the Grey Council, the one Mab opened to send Harry back in Cold Days (this one took a large amount of power as well), and the one sending the raiding party back from CI to Chicago as well. I would also think when a summoning happens a direct way is used.

I don't see it as much a discontinuity as a plot device. Just think of it as when a wizard reaches a certain point they have access to the DF version of a transporter.

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