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Messages - matolilyfu

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1
(since this is fiction and not real life I shall defend MAB!)
But Mab does have the world in mind to protect so as long as you are needed..your good.
anyway I still Vote Mab/Molly/Harry love ship....lol
Defend away.  ;)    I see Mab's purpose and its' importance - honest.  She's intriguing in a scary way.  But, I just can't romanticize her into a misunderstood heroine.
I think Ms.duck theory that mab is gonna die soon...might be true but I think I'll need to see the next book before I believe in that...Need to see how molly and mab act.
  I agree that Mab may not be with "us" much longer, but I have very little to base it on.

2
But Mab has seen what Aurora tried to do so she made plans to deal with Maeve if it ever got to the point of no return.
I'm sure that the sense of balance the courts need was served by the fact that an ally of a representative of Winter "did the job".

3
I see the letter opener as a spanking, really.
Harry got the message loud and clear.
slade was made an example of.
Am I arguing in favor of absolutism? Utterly not, I am of the bleeding heart liberal faction.
But if doing such things is evil, 95% of human governments in history are evil.
Not really a response, but ok...

4
  It was a painful point, but she was out to prove to Harry that she indeed had power over him.
Having him stab himself was proof.  Making him hurt himself more instead of allowing him to remove the letter opener was additional verification - as if he needed it.  The heartbeat skipping pain was spite, not a lesson - Mab said so. 

She inflicted pain for no purpose, other than spite, on a weaker being, and to me that is evil.  Talk about Winter's nature if you like.  To me, the ability and willingness to inflict pain on another, who is weaker than you, for no purpose, is evil.  The fact that Harry was beholden to her when she inflicted pain in spite, doesn't make one whit of difference.  That's just abuse of position - hardly a sterling character trait.

5
but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.
But I am very human.  In the case of the DV, Harry is human,(or perhaps technically, a mortal wizard possessing humanity).  He's made it his life's work to protect less powerful mortals/humans from more powerful entities.  I'd speculate that protecting the Earth at the expense of humanity wouldn't be his idea of an acceptable outcome, either.

Harry and Mab now share a common goal, keeping the Outsiders, outside, contained inside Demonreach and defeating any who aren't outside or contained.  I'm fairly confident that their ideas about how to prosecute the "war" against the Outsiders would diverge sharply if the fate of mortals were to become involved.

my definition of 'evil' is:

1) causing harm for the pleasure of it

2) having no concern for the harm you cause

Mab fits neither, as she pointed out to Harry about why he chose her in changes.
The scene that makes me question #1 is from SK, after Mab causes Harry to put a letter opener through his hand -
Quote
Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed,and only leaning against the door kept me from falling down completely.
"Dammit," I muttered, trying to keep my voice down. "We had a deal."
"I agreed not to punish you for refusing me, wizard. I agreed not to punish or harass you by proxy." Mab smiled. "I did that just for spite."
You may argue that Mab must make sure to seem all scary, but making Harry stab himself with the letter opener, and then causing his arm to twist when he tried to remove it, (which increased the magnitude of the pain), took care of that.  The bit at the end, the pain she inflicted for spite, the pain that made his heart skip a couple of beats, is where I see evil.

The idea about Mab "having no concern for the harm" she causes, is tough, because Mab's idea of harm is not the same as a mortal's idea of harm.  Things that mortals suffer at her hand, to her may simply seem like utility.  It seems that she's been preparing Molly to be something for many years, (without Molly's knowledge or consent, as far as we know), and presented Molly's fate as WL as a positive thing when speaking to Harry. When Molly faces her family, will she not experience deep pain and regret?  Is Mab concerned about Molly's pain and regret?  I don't think she is.

Of course, Mab doesn't see herself as evil.  I just happen to disagree.
 


6
kreia from starwars knights of the old republic.....if you don't know the game...Kreia is the mentor of the Exile in the game..she is 1 dark scary gray lady...don't mess with her.
 gray hero...like Batman or Green archer.
Green arrow new tv show...
A anime that is like this is called aesthetic of a rogue hero   here is a trailer for the anime if anyone wants to check it out.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33-a0MQHC8

Anyway how to deal with Mab is like dealing with anyone that has power...you go in  with a calm mind and try to make a deal/make your case...if she wants you dead or out of the job there is nothing u can do.
Oh Hollorr, I am so not cool.  DF is my first fandom obsession in many moons... (I have seen Batman and enjoy Green Arrow, but am a strictly a viewer - no deep meanings.)

It would be easier for me to consider a Mab a hero for sacrificing her life and saving mankind, if saving mankind mattered to her.  I think if she needed the dead bodies of every man, woman and child on Earth in order to fulfill her purpose, she wouldn't blink an eye.  I don't think her nature includes any protective impulses for mortals, so saving them might be a by-product of her possible life-sacrifice, but isn't the goal.

7
Obviously to Jim Free Will is extremely important for examining good and evil in the Dresdenverse. I on the other hand to not even believe Free Will exists in RL. Obviously this means that my thoughts on good and evil are going to be very different than what I think is the objective truth in the Dresdenverse.

Basically, are you asking about my thoughts or what I think is true in the Dresdenverse?
I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

But, what I was asking was in response to Ms Duck's statement -
Quote
Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.
the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.
- whether Mab, because of her purpose guarding the Gate, should be considered heroic if she dies pursuing that purpose?

8
When you ask if Mab is evil, are you talking about in-universe our out-of-universe? The distinction is important.
Pardon? 

The redcap certiainly seemed hatefull of Harry.
I just took it as an unwillingness to let a lesser being get the better of him.  When he had a chance to kill him outright, he marked him for the "Hunt" and went away.  I think hate would have required him to witness if not assist with killing Harry

9
You're kind of assuming that negative emotions or behavior have nothing to do with the soul then, only the good stuff?  What about hate?  I'd think that irrational hatred would be as surprising in Mab as affection.
I never considered Mab having a soul, (and still don't really), until the question of Molly's soul arose, since we've been led to believe the Sidhe don't have souls and Molly is Sidhe now.

I associate cold, cruel, predatory, etc. with the behavior of the Winter Sidhe, but not hate.

10
At the same time, a grende while extremely dangereous, it it not evil.  It just IS.
A grenade has one purpose - it go BOOM.  It makes no determination of the appropriate time to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate place to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate way to go boom.  A grenade just IS, but Mab IS, while making determinations.

Mab had to prove to Harry that his debt had been transferred to her, so she caused him to stab himself in the hand with a letter opener.  Then (SK) -
Quote
"Your hand yet pains you?" she asked.
"What do you think?"
Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up
through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed...
"I did that just for spite."
Then regarding the punishment of Lloyd Slate (Changes) -
Quote
"For a time, I was contented to torment him to the edge of sanity. Then I set out to see how far over the edge a mortal could go."
Yes, I know he committed treason.  Yes, I know she needed to deter others from acting against her.  But...

I have a difficult time getting the warm and fuzzies for Mab, imaging she's regrowing a soul, or even amassing a big bunch of respect for her, when I consider many of the "appropriate" methods she employs to achieve her purpose. 

11
I have to disagree with your conclusions here. Sometimes the person most willing to sacrifice themselves and everything they have is the person driven by love.

Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.

the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.
I'm having trouble with your line of thinking here, (although Ms Duck, you have my utmost respect).  I think Mab guards the Gate because it is part of what she is.  There is nothing to even hint she cares in the slightest for Earth or mortals - both are inconsequential, except for rare occasions when she can utilize one mortal or another toward her purpose.  The outsiders are a threat to the fae as much as humankind, but I genuinely don't know if that matters to Mab.  She is who and what she is and does what she has to do in whatever ways she deems appropriate, (those ways, imo, are often objectionable).

I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept.  I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms.  But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind.  Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?

You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D
Titania can't lie either and she said Mab believes in reason, logic and calculation and MW said Mab is a too much of a romantic.    I get sooo confused.

12
I suppose if shower was enough to take it down, then the sunrise would be enough as well. Even if Molly didn't take shower few months after Harry's death. I suppose its rather master-scholar relationship.
Remember in GS, Murphy urged Molly to stay at her house for a meal, "a shower"...  Surrendering hygiene can expose you to lots of things - who knew it could help turn you into a vessel of Winter?

13
My "Harry as father of Maeve and Sarissa" is all coming together now. Mwahahaha.
That kind of skeeves me out.   :o

14
Then at some time (possibly beginning with Sarrisa) she began interacting with Mortals too much. They then either gave her a soul back (but only a little) or fanned the ember until it was a guttering flame (possibly this was through soul exchanging as described by Bob in White Night).
Spending time with Sarissa may have touched the teeny tiny spark of Mab's mother love.  I just can't reconcile the idea that Mab was fanning the wee spark of a soul into a little flame, by spending time with Sarissa, while at the same time she was visiting tortures beyond comprehension on Lloyd Slate. (NOT defending Slate or saying he wasn't due some serious punishment.)  I just think soul-growth on weekends would be negated by torture through the work week.


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