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Messages - spameroo

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finaly, i think the WK is aware, just at an animal level. the ladies are likely much more ware, then we go up the scale.
The Winter Knight is aware.  At least as aware as he ever is ;)

I think the portion of Winter granted to Harry when he assumed the mantle of the Winter Knight is the animalistic awareness that was influencing Harry in Cold Days.

The larger portions of Winter's and Summer's essences that we saw entering Molly and Sarissa probably do have more of an intelligence to them, but I think we'd need to know what the ROLES of the Ladies are, to know how much.
Mab's mantle of Defender of the Outer Gates (i.e., The Winter Queen, Queen of Air and Darkness, etc.,) comes with commensurate power to do the job: probably Mab's intelligence was increased phenomenally, as well as her awareness. She may well have intellectus in the vicinity of her realm and/or the Gates. Harry gained it for Demonreach when he inadvertently claimed the mantle of its Warden, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

The Archive is a magical construct. I don't remember if we know Bob's origin, but I always understood him to be a spirit originating in the NN who was at some point pressed into service as a mini-Archive.

I see no reason to think the Fairy Queens or Knights are some sort of programmed, distinct constructs or entities.  Maybe what you guys are calling capital-M Mantles of the Queens and Knights are identical in any practical sense to what I am calling the essences of Winter/Summer. If so, the term is referring to something specific to the Faerie courts and their construction. 

I just can't see any reason to believe all the cool stuff in the series would turn out to be something as lame as a bunch of preprogrammed magical upgrade kits that get swapped around every Halloween.

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What other time are you talking about?  Bob only mentioned Halloween as a time when a mantle can undergo change in its nature.  Yes, the Winter Knight mantle can be handed off any any time of the year, but we are talking about changing the nature of the mantle & maybe permanently fusing it with the mantle of the Warden.

Yes, there might be other conjunctions where an immortal can be killed, such as the stone table, but changing the nature of a mantle might be limited to that particular date.

When Lily got the mantle of the Summer Lady it wasn't changed.  The change I'm thinking of, is like Odin making the mantle of Santa Claus.  One that didn't exist prior.  That was more of a fundamental change, than just swapping vessels.
See my previous post concerning the nature of mantles. 

A big part of what defines such mantles is the authority and influence they grant the bearers.
This is more true for some than others, of course. For example, the mantle of the Merlin of the White Council grants immense power to the one who wears it. It doesn't, however, as far as we know, grant any magical boost.
The power of the Merlin mantle is in the authority of leadership it grants over the White Council. It's in the respect granted the wearer among Accords signatories as leader of the one of the most powerful nations. It's in the fact that its wearer has been officially and unequivocally recognized as the most powerful wizard alive. It's social power, political power, and economic power.
The magical power of Langtry may not be significantly greater than, say, Ancient Mai or Ebenezer (ignoring, for the moment, the Blackstaff), but the mantle essentially allows one individual human to wield the magical power, the influence, the knowledge, and the resources - of the entire White Council of Wizards.
There are limitations, sure, and he can't just do whatever he wants with that power, because it comes from others -- but that's no different from the mantle of the Winter Knight!  Mab wields power over a domain of nature, and vests a measure of that power in the WK, but there are checks and limitations on the way that power can be used, and the granter, Mab, can withdraw it at any time. In the same way, the the wizards of White Council vest tremendous power in the Merlin by submitting to his leadership and working with him to provide a unified front to the rest of the world, despite any internal differences. The Merlin is limited in his use of that power, however, both by design (the checks built into the government of the Council) and by the nature of that power (its use depends on getting a LOT of free-will-possessing people to work together).

My point here is that the question "when can the nature of a mantle be changed?" is the wrong question to be asking. I don't think there's this concrete category of things in the Dresdenverse called "Mantles," following a defined set of rules, in the same way, for example, that "Immortals," "Mortals," "Spirits of the Nevernever," or even "Ghosts" are. I also don't think there's some type of discrete magical construction called a Mantle, as is the case with such categories as "articles of faith" or "greater circles."

A Mantle is a role or a position of responsibility, and everything that goes with it. It's a word that describes something much more than an entity's job, but less than its identity.

The question of Harry changing the Mantle of the Winter Knight is actually asking whether or not Harry can change the portion of Winter's power granted to him by Mab. She gave him a portion of herself, because that is a large part of what makes someone the Winter Knight. When he talks about the "mantle's influence" or attributes dark thoughts and impulses to the Mantle, he's using the word as shorthand for "the portion of Winter's essence placed in me as the Winter Knight."  The question that's valid is whether or not the nature of that portion of Mab can be influenced in the same way Lasciel's Shadow was, or alternatively, by extended interaction with soulfire. If you want to use Harry's shorthand and call it the Mantle, fine, but please remember that it's a word, and that it means something specific - not an arbitrary label for a category of things.

Immortals are what can only be changed on Halloween. Maybe immortals can only take up new mantles or set down old ones on Halloween. But that is a function of them being immortals.   

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thinking about the gawaine/gwalchmai myth.. doi the knight sof the cross have a mantle of sorts of their own? it would explain why they can do things even without the swords

Harry referred to "the mantle of a Knight of the Cross" in Small Favor.  If nothing else, it's a "mantle" in terms of being a role/position/title of power and responsibility.  I think everyone is putting way too much stock in this idea that a "mantle," as discussed in Cold Days specifically, is some kind of discrete thing, whether a metaphysical object of sorts, or some kind of quasi-sentient entity.  Words mean things, and that's not quite what "mantle" means.  I think the best way to consider it is as the relevant dictionary definition: an important role or responsibility that passes from one person to another.  In the Dresden universe, we've seen many times that with great responsibility comes great power. That power can take different forms.

In the best-described case, when Harry assumed the mantle of (i.e., took on the role of, accepted the responsibility of, put on the metaphysical uniform of, etc...) the Winter Knight, part of that process involved literally taking into himself the essence of Winter and a measure of Mab's power.  That is a part of the mantle of the Winter Knight, because it is part of what defines "the Winter Knight."

Harry took up the mantle of "Warden of the Well," if unintentionally, and as part of that, he gained intellectus of the island and authority over the disposition of the prisoners.  "Warden of the Well" is a mantle in the exact same way "Winter Knight" is.

When Maeve killed Lily, we watched the passing of the mantle of Summer Lady into the nearest vessel of Faerie as a literal, visible transfer of the essence of Summer.  Same with the mantle of Winter Lady shortly after.  However, that doesn't mean the fiery bird form and the blue snake form WERE the mantles.  Those were manifestations of the powers encompassed within those mantles.  This is a difficult distinction to put into words, and I'm probably not explaining myself well, so let me give a final example:

There is a mantle of the Knight of the Cross.  We haven't yet observed that mantle passing TO anyone, but we've seen it taken off.  One aspect of the mantle is that archangels send the Knights to where they are most needed.  One aspect is the fear, respect, and deference given to the Knights by many supernatural beings.  The most obvious aspect of the mantle, though, is the Sword.  A Knight of the Cross carries a Sword of the Cross.  Much of the power that goes with the mantle comes from the wielding of the Sword.  Bearing a Sword doesn't make someone a Knight, but the inverse is true.  The Swords of the Cross are analogous to the fire-bird and ice-snake that accompanied the passing of the Ladies' mantles.



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DF Reference Collection / Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« on: December 29, 2012, 03:52:23 PM »
unless f future harry left his shadow in  his own mind like lash i would be posible if lash come back for harry to learn how to do it  if it is abit thin.... ;)
What if Future Harry is the parasite O_o

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There are so many inappropriate cup size jokes I could make here....

And seeing this makes me want to dust off my old giant theory skills, I don't think I've done any giant theories since the Yogg-Saron one on the old WoW Story forum and the Darkspawn as Bioweapons one.

I am the lucid dream.
The monster in your nightmares.
The fiend of a thousand faces.
Cower before my true form.
BOW DOWN BEFORE THE GOD OF DEATH!

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DF Reference Collection / Re: List of Headaches [CD spoilers]
« on: December 25, 2012, 04:28:26 AM »
I think everyone who found out he had visited DR knew it was going to be important for him eventually. I'm not saying she was trying to lie about that, but that she was trying to mislead him about the source of his premonition. She did seem to have strong opinions about the type of person his mom was.  Maybe she was doing something similar to Maeve convincing Lily that she could detect Nemesis infections with a hand wave.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: List of Headaches [CD spoilers]
« on: December 25, 2012, 03:50:44 AM »
But, I thought this was why he was so familiar with Demonreach in Small Favor...not the Wizard Sight as Luccio believed.  Maggie Sr. makes a point of stating that power comes with this knowledge.  Power comes with all knowledge...so it's odd she should mention it.

I've started to think Luccio might have been lying about that in the first place. As far as I can remember, that was literally the only time such a phenomenon was ever even alluded to by anyone. None of the wizards senior to Harry ever mentioned it again, and he never seemed to experience anything he thought to ascribe to it.

I don't really know WHY she would have made it up, but it always did strike me as sort of a non sequitur.

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DF Reference Collection / Re: List of Headaches [CD spoilers]
« on: December 24, 2012, 04:27:47 PM »
The headache stopped by DR in Cold Days only started in the room of "Memory... Reflection."  Kinda supports the idea that the headaches' purpose is to keep him from certain trains of thought.

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