I saw that as self-preservation. Harry already compared the party to 'the first day in the prison yard' or words to that effect. What happens in prison? The strong inmates, (sidhe nobles or what-have-you), take a look at the new guy/girl & size him/her up. They look for weakness so they can prey on him/her.

Now look at it from Harry's perspective. He's a mortal (albeit a very powerful one), who's come into their world. Mortals are already prey to the sidhe. Couple that with the fact that many of them probably already have strong feelings for Harry due to his past deeds. If they can challenge/hurt Harry, they're basically doing the same to Mab through a proxy, probably without consequence. And who wouldn't want to be able to take a shot at the boss without fear of reprisal? Finally, he's backed them into a corner.

So it's like this. Harry walks in. Every head in the place turns to him. He's a well-known defender of humanity. One of the badder gangs there takes measure of him by hurting his escort, (the only other human in the place). He destroys the one, & tells the rest he'll happily do the same to them. He immediately gets challenged. If he had done anything else, he's painting the word 'victim' with a capital "V" on his forehead, & somebody in the court WOULD be taking a shot at him faster than you can say 'flicum bicus'. The ONLY option Harry had, in order to not be dead (again) during his first official Winter Court public appearance, was to take out that sidhe noble quickly & gruesomely.

We aren't arguing that Harry committed a crime.  We are arguing that from a human morality viewpoint, what he did was wrong.  Harry is all concerned about himself going bad.  It will start with him abusing the sidhe and then from there get worse. 

I have wondered if perhaps Harry's instructions to Cat Sith or Harry's new rule led to Cat Sith being susceptible to a mortal who infects him.

I called him out on it.  Let me find that post. 

When I first read this I did a mental double-take. Harry committed murder there. Seriously, he straight up murdered a sapient being for the crime of disagreeing with him, and somehow it's okay because it was a Sidhe, not a human. And nobody calls him out on it. There have been other instances of speciesism in the series, but this takes the cake.

So to recap, the evidence for Mac being a Grigori is:

They were known as "Watchers" and Mac was called Watcher.

There are subtle angelic references around him like the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.

The Grigori disobeyed God because they mated with human women and fathered the Nephilim. This fits with Macs speech to Harry in Changes:

There is a link between Grigori and wine:

Note: The text quoted is from around ~400 CE.


2) Og is known as one of the "Refaim", a race of giants who lived in ancient times.

3) "Refaim" and "Nephilim" are sometimes used to describe the same people in the various legends.  See here for an initial look.  Some say the "Refaim" were a subset of the "Nephilim" - who lived in a certain area (of which Og was one).

4) Among other things, Noah is known to be the first person to ever get drunk (see:  Genesis 9:20)

5) While most Jewish sources blame Noah's drunkenness on Satan somehow, there is a tradition that it was Og who somehow altered the wine to induce drunkenness (presumably until this point it was merely just a way of getting closer to god).  An example of that is here

------------

So:
Grigori --> Nephilim --> Rephaim --> King Og --> Noah --> wine.

Yes, it's a little involved, but there *is* a connection.  It would not surprise me to see other traditions where Grigori (or at least Nephilim) are somehow connected to wine/strong drink.  It was after all one of the traditional way of worshiping "powers".


Is that everything so far? Also:

Can you recall any more references?

Yuppers.  That's why we don't want to nix threads like this, just make sure they stay clear of the real-world religious and sociopolitical topics.  It's the type of issue that brings out the value-judgments in droves, but it's what the books are about pretty much. 

--absolutely.

its a WAG, but I think Mab is going to die soon and she knows it. Molly was not intended to be the next winter lady; Molly is intended to be the next winter queen.

that, and arguments about 'good and evil' when dealing with gods tends to be a bit mushy, IMO. it all comes down to the person's perspective, and the person's opinion...

According to various anthropocentric definitions, yes, she is definitely evil. She is likely heretical too, depending on your religious viewpoint.