Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Winter Warden

Pages: [1]
1
So, if we assume 1810 as the last year Maggie LeFay could have been born, and sometime around 1970 or so as the year she died, then Maggie LeFay was, at minimum, 160 years old at the time of her death. She could've been as much as 80 or 90 years older than that, but she couldn't have been any younger.

Huh.  Thanks.  That`s interesting.  In fact, the quote reveals that Maggie must have been born considerably before 1810, as the French-Indian War went from 1754-1763 (and really it was all over by 1760 in North America).  If Jim wanted to write Maggie`s mother into this war, she must be at least, say, 20 by the time the war`s essentially over in 1760, or else she would struggle to play a significant role in the story.  Theoretically, she might have had Maggie as late as when she was 50 years old (1790 at the latest), although this would be very uncommon in this time period.  Generally, women had children in their 20`s or 30`s (or earlier) making a far more likely birth age for Maggie no later than about 1780.  So, I would guess that Maggie was approaching 200 when she had Harry (which is really weird, but I guess that that`s wizards for you).

Of course, while interesting, Maggie`s age does not detract from my main interest in the timeline, which is that it seems that Maggie could only have been openly violating the Laws of Magic between some time soon after starting her relationship with Raith and when Thomas was born.  As I stated, I am not sure when her relationship with Raith actually started, although I cannot imagine it lasted for a long time, but it seems curious that she would start openly breaking the Laws of Magic in this period.  Regardless of what she was doing, I cannot imagine that she would benefit from having the White Council know about it, and it seems unlikely that it was just a mistake such as, for example, accidentally killing a mortal with a fire spell while panicked, as Eb specifically states that "she was guilty of violating the First Law, among others."  You could accidentally violate one law, but accidentally violating multiple laws seems a bit of a stretch. 

If we accept that Maggie would have no good reason to want the council to know that she was breaking the laws, then one wonders how the council found out.  Did a wizard stumble upon her breaking the Laws of Magic by accident, was she placed under more intense scrutiny because of her association with Raith, or did she tip off Eb that something was going on at that dinner, which he then investigated, revealing the truth?  To me, this period with Raith before Thomas was born seems to be the key to understanding Maggie, so it's too bad we can't do any more than speculate about what was going on at the time.   :(
 

2
Alright, I'm going to sidestep the whole was Maggie evil for most of her life or not debate, as I think that we are a bit short on evidence to reach a conclusion, in favour of trying to set up an approximate Maggie Dresden timeline based upon what we know in order to clarify some of these issues.

According to the DF timeline thread, Maggie is over 100 years old when she becomes involved with Lord Raith.  Thus, as Thomas was born 34-35 years pre-SF and she was presumably involved with Lord Raith at least a couple of years before his birth, let's say that she hooked up with Raith 37-40 years pre-SF, as, if Raith is a WC vampire, then I would assume that they were having a lot of sex.  So, as a ballpark figure, let's say that she was born around 150 years pre-SF (I know that you said it should be more like 180-200 years per-SF AA, but I'm not familiar with the WoJ you are citing).

~ 150 BSF
Maggie born

~ 140 BSF
Maggie manifests a talent around the same age as Harry according to WoJ, so probably she's 10-12 years old.  Presumably, as she was was Ebenezar's daughter, he finds out fairly quickly and soon takes her as an apprentice.

~ 135-130 BSF
Maggie's apprenticeship ends.  Feeling resentful of Eb's strict training, she sets off one her own.

Between 130 BSF and 50 BSF
At some point in this period, Maggie gains knowledge of the Ways surpassing that of any other living wizard, so she is probably spending a lot of time there at some point.  If her abilities were well-known enough that people were calling her Maggie LeFay, she presumably had them at least 10 years before she went warlock.  most likely, if she came to be widely known by this name, she had this ability far longer (maybe by 100 BSF).  In this period, she is not being hunted by the wardens.  We don't know whether she is breaking the laws without anyone else noticing, but, at the very least, she is reveling in what the council considers grey magic, including (probably) things like summoning demons, as Chaunzaggoroth says that "Many in the underworld were … familiar with her."  To be honest, she might also been involved with Raith later in this period, as I am not aware of any source which tells us when their relationship began, so take the later date with a grain of salt.  According to Luccio, she advocated for change in the White Council during this period, wanting the Laws of Magic to embrace concepts of justice.  Presumably she was also associated with DuMorne in this period, as, since DuMorne was a known associate of Maggie and a warden, they must have met before she was a fugitive from White Council justice.   

~ 40 BSF
Maggie becomes involved in a relationship with Raith.  As I have said, this date may be off, so take it with a grain of salt.

Sometime around the beginning of Maggie/Raith and before Thomas' birth (so before 35 BSF)
“A dinner. Maggie—my Maggie—asked me to a dinner. She’d just taken up with that Raith bastard. Arianna was there. Maggie didn’t warn me. They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie’s mentor, then.” He sighed. “I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn’t want it, either. And we fought.”

Maggie is involved in some sort of scheme with Raith which Eb refuses to support and discourages (this could be something to do with the Black Council, although that is, of course, speculation).  It is worth noting, however, that as Eb is not under orders to kill Maggie during this period, she cannot have openly broken the Laws of Magic yet (although, as noted earlier, she might have done so secretly).  She might also have done terrible things prior to this point which did not violate the Laws of Magic, as Chaunzaggoroth says that "her coming was awaited with great anticipation."  Again, this is just speculation, as she might have not done anything truly horrible until a little bit later.  We have scant evidence one way or the other.

34-35 BSF
Thomas is born.  Maggie imprisoned in the Chateau Raith.  Most of the council believes that she has run afoul of something in the NeverNever according to Luccio (as Luccio says that she disappeared for 4-5 years, she cannot have been imprisoned too long before Thomas' conception).

29-30 BSF 
Maggie escapes Raith when Thomas is about 5 years old.  According to Eb, "she turned away from her previous associates-including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."

28-29 BSF
Maggie meets Malcolm Dresden.

27-28 BSF
Maggie is killed by Raith.


Thinking about this timeline, two important points occur to me.  Firstly, if Maggie redeemed herself, then she was only doing so in those last two years when she was on the run.  Moreover, as Eb "had [his] orders" regarding her in this period, but was free to meet with her when she began her relationship with Raith, Maggie must have only begun openly breaking the Laws of Magic while she was with Raith (and before Thomas was born, as the White Council did not know where she was after Thomas' birth).  According to Eb, "she was guilty of violating the First Law, among others," so Maggie must have been a pretty busy law breaker while she was together with Raith.

Also, I know some people consider Luccio's testimony suspect, but I think that this timeline is consistent with everything we have heard from all the various sources of information on this subject.  Please correct me if I am mistaken.





   

3
The theory's not so strange.  Although I have never thought of Maggie LeFay as the founder of the Black Council, I find it completely plausible that she was a member who decided that the BC's goals no longer aligned with her own, so she left.  Frankly, there are distinct similarities between the viewpoint of a character like Kumori and what Luccio claims were Maggie's goals.  Thus, even were she not one of the initial members, I would not have been surprised had she been sought out by the Black Council, as her views of the White Council were apparently quite well known.     

Pages: [1]