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Messages - 1eyedjack

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Author Craft / Re: Power...
« on: August 05, 2011, 01:52:01 AM »
Hmm, you make a lot of good points, and your right I think its getting a bit muddled here...   I have a fairly detailed vision of the world's creation, function, and the powers in the world, etc.  but I think I was getting a bit tunnel visioned on the War Effort  aspect of it, and those divisions just may not be as compatible as Id hoped for the role I was wanting them to play.

I did find a more traditional/mythological set of divisions.   Yima, who was Ahura Mazdā's (ie . GOD's) first chosen shepherd, who was asked but refused to "to receive [God's] law and bring it to men" and so instead was charged to rule over and nourish the earth, and see that all living things would prosper.  Im thinking this would have been an ascension ritual that Yima refused, but the next shepherd to be chosen (that famous one) was more willing to take up the mantle.  Anyway Yima divided all the peoples into 4 groups: Priests, Warriors, Farmers, and Artisans. (btw, he also grew continents a few times when the world started to get overpopulated by Mankind, which is kinda cool)  I can run with those for the divisions within the Zeta organization, and keep the more esoteric bits less rigidly defined.

History and mythology are always good resources to plunder.  I find it strange that merchants were not included in those groups.  Maybe that's just an Iranian thing.  I'm interested in the idea anyway and how you run with it.  I hope it becomes everything you want it to be.

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Author Craft / Re: Overused Types of Characters
« on: August 05, 2011, 01:39:09 AM »
Er, minor correction there 1EJ - serious writers usually have a serious, solid goal in mind.
Noodling maybe not but if you've got to turn out an article or term paper or some such thing yes.

Sure there's the goal of churning something out but what that is and how you do it are things you can control.  I wasn't entirely clear on that point, you are correct.  In my mind it is the difference between Olympic racing and parkour.  You can be good at it but there are a lot of right ways to do it.

As for journalism and papers and the like I honestly hadn't been considering those.  I completely concede to that point, just making that clear.




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Author Craft / Re: Overused Types of Characters
« on: August 04, 2011, 07:14:45 PM »
Intrinsically better for a reader, no, of course not.

Intrinsically better for a writer... I do actually believe so.  I think that if you're serious about writing as well as you can, you keep trying new challenges and not settling for easy options.  In the same way that one can't really train up to being an Olympic runner by setting the target of one's training at outrunning half a dozen random passers-by.

Eh, I've never seen a comparison of art to sports that I've ever liked.  Sure you both try hard, but whereas an Olympic runner has a solid goal in mind a writer really doesn't.  You have far more options than that runner for getting from point A to point B and touting any one above others is mostly subjective.  Really all you gotta do is write.  Once you are doing that, you're most of the way there. 

Not to say that it isn't hard work, but how you get to that point is subjective.  For some people it is easy and for some it isn't.  It is like Buddhism and enlightenment.  It happens every day but so does lightning.  Doesn't mean everyone is always struck by it.  You can hold up a lightning rod but that's not a guarantee.  You could be doing everything to avoid it and still get hit.  That's why this is art and not sports. 

Sure, Tchaikovsky wrote the Nutcracker suite and he hated it because he was so limited in what he did and it ended up being a big hit.  Then you have Mozart and if you know nothing other than the movie Amadeus you'll still know what I'm talking about. 

Listen to Yo-Yo-Ma's rendition of Bach's Cello Suite.  He doesn't keep a perfectly timed tempo, he rolls around in speed and it works beautifully.  His bow dances across the strings and he lays into the deeper notes making them strike harder.  He uses variations. 

So with that in mind, I think making things harder isn't the goal.  I think just looking at things differently, easy or not, and mixing things up is a better goal to have in mind.  Things don't always have to be complicated and sometimes simple just works. 

TL:DR Don't go for difficulty, just have a dynamic point of view.

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Author Craft / Re: Cool words
« on: August 04, 2011, 06:48:35 PM »
Pulchritude - formal, literary, or physical beauty.

pulchritudinous - Mostly for physical beauty. 

"That girl is pulchritudinous."

I also like old slang like moxie.


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Author Craft / Re: Overused Types of Characters
« on: August 04, 2011, 05:40:07 AM »
I'll agree that it's a lot more difficult.

That's precisely why I think people should attempt it. There's precious little point in only taking on easy answers and solved problems.  I admire a writer who can make me sympathise with and understand someone I would not normally like much more than I admire a book that is working for me because it's hitting my emotional comfort-buttons.

I don't see how you're connecting these two ideas.  The effort of making your audience emotionally invested in your character is a trial no matter what you're writing and it is all in how you make it so.  So here's the kicker. 

What you're saying is the equivalent of:  If you find writing science-fiction hard, you should write science fiction.  Look, Dr. Manhattan is a great character but not every story needs a Dr. Manhattan and Watchmen is good because of the abundance of characters with a list of flaws and strengths a mile long.  Good writing is good writing.  I don't like Harry Potter but from what little I've read I realize she has her own unique style that is entertaining even if I don't care for the subject matter. 

I know what you mean when you talk about not taking easy answers but to each his own.  Just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it is intrinsically better.

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Author Craft / Re: Power...
« on: August 04, 2011, 05:05:54 AM »
Power over the world around you, but with basic principle that the world around you is influenced, and even defined, by the collective opinion of the people in the world. 

Also, the main reason for this particular question was to determine areas/departments for the organization that is behind Creation, and is actively fighting a war to make it happen.  Think of it like a modern war:  there'd be the front line that does the actual physical fighting, but then there's also a whole group devoted to Intelligence, and another that would be shaping popular opinion with Propganda, and yet another that is the R&D dept developing the tools of the others.  Those are more real-world examples than what I have in mind, as the war is being fought on completely different principles, but you get the idea.  Also, they don't have to be hard and fast categories with obvious boudaries; there can and will be areas and situations of overlap.

That clear it up at all, or did i just make it worse?  :P

Crystal.  Sort of.  I think I've got a good handle on the subject but let's see if I'm a blind man who only comprehends a piece of the elephant or the whole thing.

I have an alternate perception on the previous argument for emotional control.  It could possibly go hand in hand with the social/information department of thought non-metaphysical idea.  Art is created to alter perceptions, propaganda, things like that.  Music, art, entertainment, etc.  Art's at least what I interpret from your statement as the primary vehicle for control of opinion. 

It is difficult to listen to "Farewell of Slavianka" and not get swept up in it, even if it is a Russian patriotic song.  Popular music is a way of doing so as well.  A lot of rap songs are about clubbing and so what is popular?  When you hear the theme from Jaws don't you think it was meant to get a response from you?  Action movies wouldn't be the same without those fast and intense musical numbers.

There are all kinds of arts that are made to evoke a response from the audience without being focused on an idea.  Dadaism is a decent example of this at least in what they did with films.  It doesn't have to be propaganda about information but just a pattern of thinking.  Certain pieces of art make you "feel" a certain way.

Here's an example.

Read this spoiler after you've seen a snippet of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeosT_6vG7g&feature=related.  You don't have to watch the whole thing (it is pretty strange), but do see up until the man with the gun.  Look at the spoiler early if you want but the effect is better if you don't.

(click to show/hide)

Another example comes from the Romans during their "panem et circenses" era.  You make entertainment and food the extent of moral dilemmas and you have apathetic and shallow citizens who don't give a toss about much else.

Really my point is that creation and emotional control is what it sounds like you're focusing on in the whole Hollywood consensus thing and I think there's some merit to acknowledging the difference between that and just pure information.  Watch a movie, even a romantic comedy and try to focus on what's going on around the camera's focus.

Here's another example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZUOnCbKc8  This is a film starring Paul Newman called The Verdict.  This is just the opening, but this shows exactly what I'm talking about.  You're introduced to this character and just from a short section you know a great deal more about him than you would think.  Here's another spoiler and I suggest you watch before reading. 

(click to show/hide)
 

The difference between emotional control and informational control is a somewhat gray area, but my point is that emotional control has a hell of a lot more subtlety and when getting to a person it is hard to have one without the other.  Emotion comes first, information second.

The basic idea was mentioned earlier and danced around but I didn't feel like it got the representation it deserved.

TL:DR
Propaganda is emotional control as well as informational control.


I do have some other concerns though.  Isn't Deceit just an offshoot of information?  I mean if you control what information people have, then deceit is just one of the options you have in exerting that power.  For that matter, creation and destruction seem to refer to ideals rather than a form all their own.  All the powers listed can swing either way on that scale so adding destruction to the list but not creation seems a little odd (you create a lie, you destroy a lie, etc.).  Neither one feels inherently good or evil either. 

Metaphysically and spiritually I agree with you, but Im not sure how it would be an avenue to imposing will/change on the world around you, at least in any way that wouldn't qualify as a family version of Social, Technological, or maybe Informational Power.  Deceit works as all versions of The Con; Destruction works mostly through the threat (ie the man who can destroy the world rules the world).  But the act of creation does not in and of itself gain you anything; rather its what you create that can gain you power, depending on what it is. 

The destruction of the world example seems a tad funky.  Sure there's the threat but carrying it out is really the equivalent of taking your ball and going home.  You aren't playing the game anymore, you broke it.  That and doesn't what you destroy affect what you control?  The same works with creation anyway.  Sure you can destroy the world, but I CAN MAKE ANOTHER ONE!  The man who can make another world isn't exactly exerting the same sort of control as destruction, but they're still playing on the same field. 

The act of destruction in itself gets you no more than creation does.  If no one is around and you destroy something then threats be damned.  For that matter I don't see how a threat is that much different than an offer.  Offering to make a house for a man and threatening to destroy a man's house could both get you the same basic result of that man's cooperation.  Besides, there's all this emphasis in your examples of very straightforward brutish uses of that power and I think that mindset is sort of putting you in a pair of blinders in regards to this subject.  It doesn't feel like this is all about threats from your other posts but there's always the possibility of me having the wrong idea on this. 

Finance seems a bit muddled because having that means you have access to all the others because you can always buy them.  Still, I like the concept of money so I say keep it.

Hopefully that's helpful in some way shape or form or at least keeps the ball rolling in a good direction.

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Author Craft / Re: Overused Types of Characters
« on: August 01, 2011, 12:19:34 AM »
That's a relative issue.  I mean, it's the bedevilling problem of many Superman comics, but there are still good stories about Superman, and Mike Carey's Lucifer got a mostly totally awesome 75-issue story arc out of a central character who is the second most powerful in all of Creation and has both the ability and the temperament to set the world on fire if he wants to light a cigarette. Partly by giving him a great supporting cast and partly by giving him pride enough to insist on playing your game by your rules and winning anyway.

I didn't think I was stating absolute fact Zur-En-Aargh, just my own personal opinions.  There are some superman story lines that are passable but for the most part I'm unimpressed.  I have found that it is a lot more difficult to take the premise of absolute power in the main character and turn that into a compelling story.  Not impossible, just less likely.  It is relative but then again all things are.  Even a tried and true method will fail at times and sometimes a longshot will end up on top.  The point was overused characters.

Quote
Tolkien was doing something specific with orcs that seems to me to be worth doing, in that direction;  his orcs are Fallen elves, and his elves are very much like Miltonic angels, with what that entails in terms of free will.

But remember, the topic is overused characters and I think orcs fall into that category.  Fantasy post-Tolkien has at the same time advanced and stagnated.  On the one hand there's more of it and it is far more widely accepted.  On the other hand elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, and many other fantastical creatures have become dumbed down Tolkien interpretations and have not strayed very far since then.  Not to say that there are no exceptions I'm sure there are.  On the whole it is still very true.

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Author Craft / Re: Power...
« on: July 29, 2011, 08:53:39 PM »
Ive got a wipp (Work In Perpetual Progress) going and was looking for some general help.  

The question of the hour is this:   What different forms of power are there in the world?  Power in this sense is anything that lets you impose you will on the world around you.  These are what I came up with, anything else you can think of?

Physical - "Im stronger than you."  A primary basis for power in more feudal times.  
Financial - The gold standard of power. Literally.
Technological - "I have better stuff than you" (weapons, tech, etc)
Information - "I know something you don't know."
Social - Power based on others who will listen to you.  Could be political, business, general fame, etc.

Deceit - power through convincing falsehood (Thanks Vryce)
Destruction - Power over things via the ability to destroy them. 

To clarify, do you mean power over other people or just the general world around you?  After reading all the posts I'm still a little fuzzy on that bit.  I mean, hell just existing changes the world.

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Author Craft / Re: Where to Start; Plot, Characters, or Setting?
« on: July 29, 2011, 08:30:24 PM »
I always felt that whatever I started with should be important.  If what tipped me towards writing was an idea for a character then by god the character came first.  If I had a plot idea, I made a very rough outline with different possibilities.  On the other hand, with plot I'd simply file it away, convinced that in order to create a proper character to fill in the blanks I'd need time to think about it.  On one occasion, I'd had an explanation of a way magic could work in a fantasy setting tucked away in a file, came up with a few characters that I realized would work fantastically with that sort of magic and a story erupted forth from the amalgamation. 

Here's the thing, take everything said here with a grain of salt.  Take suggestions but do what works out for you.  Bottom line, remember the Nike slogan:  Just do it.  Write.

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Author Craft / Re: Overused Types of Characters
« on: July 29, 2011, 08:14:53 PM »
I always liked villains I could identify with, who always had reasons for what they did, even if they weren't the best.  I like villains whose road to hell was paved with good intentions.  That's why I like Marcone.  He's not entirely evil, but he'll do anything to get ahead.  He has plenty of redeemable qualities but the guy is still bad news.

I really don't like characters with too much power.  There's a point in a story where things become too much, and the "scale" of power is obliterated.  I've been satisfied with Dresden in that He's always in over his head and while he is strong there's always something to outclass him.  In the Belgariad by David Eddings it worked sort of, but the Mallorean shouldn't have been written.  If you kill a god then you are done, that's all there is to it. 

Really the Mallorean defines Snow's post on blithely fulfilling destiny and the Belgariad is guilty of that too sometimes.

I despise flawless characters as well.  Flaws are the foundation of a character and without them you don't have a character, you have a machine or a puppet.  I love to see the wrong choices made or just choices that while significant have no clear right and wrong.

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Author Craft / Re: How do YOU plan your stories?
« on: July 29, 2011, 07:57:42 PM »
Pondering, a tremendous amount of pondering.  I like to think of it like assembling a bicycle in my brain.  It only works if you put it together one way, and I can put it down and come back to it later in my head.  I'll write down names and locations, subplot points, as well as different scenes but most of that is simply bullet points that I use as prompting while I play things out in my head.  I like to put characters in scenes that may or may not be canonical, but still reveal something about them if only to me.  I guess I could say that I like to build characters and let the characters build the story for me but that isn't entirely true.  However, I do like to get an iron tight grip on characters before I ever knuckle down on the story.  Tabletop games and my theatrical background are to blame for that, but it works for me so hey, no worries. 

It isn't a matter of a brain being disorganized.  It is about focusing on a scene and logical progression.  Believe me I'm not organized about it in my head but I play a scene back over and over and over until I know it backwards and forwards.  From there, I know what the next move is and I organize accordingly based on what is boring or not.  Then I go and see if I can find the right words to express it. 

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Author Craft / Re: Author In Progress
« on: July 29, 2011, 07:39:17 PM »
Snow,

It is difficult to ask for criticism while at the same time not sounding desperate for attention.  I know absolutely no one on the board so I'll try lurking and posting a bit to get to know folks before opening up with content.  If interest occurs then swell but I'm not going to shove my work down people's throats.  Thanks for the advice on PMs though, I appreciate it.  I'd also love to read anything that anyone has even if all I have to offer is a theatrical background and a talent for spelling in terms of criticism.  I can also display praise in a modestly acceptable vocabulary.  So, Snow, I guess I'm asking if I may read any work you've written or if nothing else a pointed finger at someone whose work you like on the board. 

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Author Craft / Re: Author In Progress
« on: July 29, 2011, 04:19:19 PM »
Hi, my name's Sean.  I'm rather new to the writing scene in terms of output that people actually see, but I've been writing for I guess over a decade.  I tend to drift towards either science fiction or fantasy and I try not to combine them.  I'm certain that writing is the way to go but it is difficult to hold onto that notion with a handful of bills so naturally I fall behind on my writing often.  

I've been writing a science-fiction story recently involving themes of madness, isolation, conspiracy, and a little bit of quantum physics.  I very nearly posted a story idea, but then I read the rules again.  I very nearly posted a sample, but then I READ THE RULES AGAIN.  I like stories about heroes who are intelligent, but not all knowing.  I like Batman but not Superman.  Maybe soon I'll dig up a blog if nothing else and post samples there.

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