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That's very in depth, Tetrasodium, thank you very much. I'm taking some notes now, and I'll post again if I have any questions.
. Amusingly enough, many of the standard inductions rely on things that ill happen naturally & letting the subject's subconscious believe the hypnotist is causing it. Imagine a window in the top of your skull, squeeze your eyes shut tight & try to look up (you physically can't do both!;). here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5rXsq3ZL9o) is a nice example induction, Your blood pressure will drop very slightly & muscles will relax somewhat during an exhale while seated, if a hypnotist is telling you to follow his hand down each exhale, the subconsciousness kid just shrugs & starts to listen to the guy starting to talk about moving the furniture around . There are a lot of different types of inductions, none of them are "best". Here is a pretty good example of an "instant" induction known as a handshake interrupt, but it's blown up to be easy to follow without knowing what's happening. it also has a good explanation compared to a fast one. Most importantly however is the last thing he says about keeping your cool when a subject does the unexpected, play it off as expected & encouraged while parrying it off into a direction you want to go using the momentum it builds for the hypnotist I think you're misusing my quotes when you try to use them to support your position tetrasodium.Yea I double quoted you by mistake & went back to fix that
. I only quoted you because you agreed that sort of gameplay he enjoys is too far abstracted into a distant meta level to be considered something at the player enjoys doing these kinds of things with their character in the game layer. Frankly I don't care what Sanctaphrax has to say on the subject of the Bartle scale while trying to boost his postcount. The bartle scale only came up when he stated PS: I don't really like the whole "FATE is about story" thing.I tried to offer it as a suggestion explaining part of what he might have been trying to get at after you yourself tried to ask him what it was about then (to which he refused as well.
When you look at the real meanings of the categories, plenty of what you can do in a tabletop game falls outside of their bounds. First and foremost, there's pretending to be your character.not this nonsense again it seems that what I kindly called as just possibly being "willful blindness" earlier was too mild. It is also blindingly obvious that you are not reading the thread. A failure to read the thread & what is being said in even recent posts seems to be the source of all your confusion.
I disagree I will say this again, hopefully for the last time this time. The scoring is about what sorts of activities you like your character to do. What pray tell do you believe you can do with your character in the game that involves "some meta level" that does not either involve socializing, killing, exploring, or achieving things? Be specific, because there has been a lot of "I enjoy them for other reasons" while giving no detail about what it is that is enjoyed doing instead. The closest to come was tweaking the rules (unquestionably an achievement or form of exploration)or writing a story... but, since any story pretty much needs to involve one or more of those four things, be specific as to what kind of story fits into none of those groupings at all? writing a story & mucking with the rules on a meta level ate not activities done in the game unless you redefine rpg, or what constitutes a character activity*.
* honestly at this point, it seems like the "confusion" over what constitutes an activity you do with your character in the game is bordering on willful blindness
That particular kind of achievement, story and rule tweaking are meta in themselves since the characters are not aware of the rules and mechanics and can't be aware of too much of the the over-arching plot in order to keep belief suspended. As such those two activities don't fall into a character play style archetype that the quiz is trying to define players as having.
Correct! That is not a point that should have been this hard to make that it required pages of debate
My bad, I thought you wanted Sanctaphrax to take the quiz to find out what kind of player he is when he's said that for him at least the play is not necessarily the main point of the game. As such he falls outside of the range of the test's categories, so there isn't really much point in him taking it. His main point so far, and the one that seemed to lead to you wanting him to take the test is that he dislikes attempts to pigeonhole people with questionnaires and fixed play styles because it can lead to stereotyping and elitism which can damage enjoyment of any game.don't really care, he was just claiming confusion with no explasion on what confused him. Suggesting he take the test was simply because it's hard to be confused by a multiple choice questionnaire that gives you a range of percentages for the different playstyle categories based on your answetrs to various activity examples that could take place using ones character & desires/reactions to events
The stereotype that seems to be going on here is that you think your players can't grasp the concept or rules of the DFRPG unless you change the format of the game by rendering it more like d&d. Trying to create a long list of possible elemental spell effects, changing the fundamental nature of Spirit (narratively) by making it divine, and rewriting the laws of magic in order to make them less intimidating for your players to explore. Sanctaphrax has said this is unnecessary and coming from a d&d background myself I agree.Yea, that's not to say that I intend/want to make it into d&d, just crib from some of it's settings as a numvber of players showed & admitted having trouble trying to carry over concepts that seemed clear in standard fantasy rpg's into the dresdenverse's real world with other stuff beneath the surface. I was (I think) always able to ask a few questions to help them find a real world/dresdenverse analog to them, but they still admitted difficulty & uncertainty about bringing in things that might clash with the dresdenverse. Since people familiar with the dresdenverse were an extreme minority, it's easier to just say the game it s in one of those distant levels of the nevernever like the one harry & bob talked about a blue spiderman existing in _(one of the side jobs stories perhaps?)_ given that pretty much anything from dresdenverse will fit in fine with a more standard fantasy setting like a modern eberron(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/Eberron?from=Main.Eberron) with its religious pantheon that is both highly simplified over standard d&d's and inclusive of all those nobody gods that always needed looking up.
You wanted honest feedback on whether or not what you were doing was good. I don't think it's bad. I just don't think its necessary. It's not really Dresden Files anymore, which is fine if you intend to use the rules and not the setting. If you do intend to use the setting though I wouldn't change anything.I like the rules & love the books, but the setting is not all that important
You are right that the refluff in the first couple posts is probably unnecessary. I've also noticed, from what I can gather from your anecdotes, that if there is a problem with your players it's less an understanding of the rules and more a lack of investment in the game. Trying to figure out why that is should probably be your first priority. If part of the problem is spotty attendance and an influx of newbies then you may have to recap rules frequently be patient about it and try to help a few of the players who are interested and attend most regularly to get a firm grasp on the rules. In time those players can hopefully provide a strong core so the game doesn't choke and they may be able to also help lighten the burden of enlightening newbies.
I want to be clear I'm not saying this because I don't think you know already, but because it's what I've thought might help, it's my honest feedback. This thread seems to have devolved significantly from its original intent, it might help to try and refocus back to the beginning.No, believe me I've considered a lot of this & tried to squeeze blood from that stone with some of the players always getting how much they really enjoy it & love the game *this particular example from the "mike" player described a while back. Sometimes just hearing what you already know/suspect is useful when that knowledge/suspicion doesn't make much sense , but hearing it is good
That particular kind of achievement, story and rule tweaking are meta in themselves since the characters are not aware of the rules and mechanics and can't be aware of too much of the the over-arching plot in order to keep belief suspended. As such those two activities don't fall into a character play style archetype that the quiz is trying to define players as having.
@Tetrasodium: Do you need / want all of the detailed options in your elemental descriptions? I find it easier to simply state "The Element of Fire can do anything you can reasonably describe as being caused by fire." The only element which may need more description than that is Spirit. And that's probably more about defining just what Spirit is...No, don't really need them. Spirit is the odd man out & that was part of why I plugged it as "divine" a day or so after I wrote up descriptions for the four elements minus the scrying & such.
Sanctaphrax does fall outside of the "normal" range of what is interesting to players about games. As such he does fall into a fifth category that the test doesn't encompass. It's not a flaw on Sanctaphrax's case then, it's a flawin the test for not having a broad enough set of parameters. He seems to enjoy games more on a meta level, so trying to pigeonhole him with a particular playstyle archetype just isn't going to work.
Also, I'm kind of on the same page as Sanctaphrax on that example question. I would want to know why I died on a meta level, in other words as a player, but it wouldn't really be necessary to plot revenge, or to keep it from happening again, I'll just reroll. My next character is not going to care because he's probably not going to have any relation to my former character at all. If he did then depending on the character either option would be valid for me depending on the kind of character I wanted to play.
mmorpg mmorpg mmorpg mmo mmo mmorpg[/list]
It's not playstyle model trying to sum up a game like GNS, , it's psychology model generalizing what a player enjoys about a plsaying an rpg. You are just refusing to acknowledge that an rpg pretty much boils down to certain general types of things you could do & trying to redefine certain words. But since you are still trying to claim that you break the mold & there is some fifth thing you cannot put to words that applkies to you & don't understand the concept the (very old) bartle scale represents, just take the damned test, here's one phrased for mmo with a handy self scoring thingand...
http://www.gamerdna.com/rails/quizzes/take/bartle-test-of-gamer-psychology
Agreed [With regards to the FATE is about story phrase being problematic], but I'd like to extend on this with my own thoughts. I suspect we might be in agreement on them, & they might be helpful with regards to some of the confusion on the "fate is not about story" & my belief that "story" is a poor choice of words.
I'm sure that at least a significant percentage of the folks here have at least heard of the [=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Testurl]Bartle test[/url] where players [not game designers, not novelists]are divided into some mix of explorer, Socializer, Achiever, & Killer. It may have been originally designed toward splayers of MUD's & MMO's, but both of those are descendents of pen & paper RPG's making it still apply to different player playstyles. By using the word choice of "story", you somewhat imply that FATE should be slanted heavily towards some of those with some of the other playstyles being an odd fit when that is not the case.
To use a real world example, few would claim that a live radio broadcast of a sporting event is a "story", in the technical sense it both is & is not. With fate, you can have:
- A: A player rather far into the socializer slant that wants to roleplay & doesn't think anyone should bother with dice, maneuvers, aspects, etc because it "gets in the way of story." He gets annoyed when people inject nonsense like combat into his "story" & retreats into a portable hole when it starts if at all possible
- B: A player who wants to explore the world & doesn't give a fig about "story." Things like aspects/maneuvers/etc just get in the way of doing that. He too doesn't care about one of the other aspects & retreats into his portable hole/pokeball when that thing comes up in game
- C: A player who doesn't give a fig about A or B & just wants to kill shit & break things. Since this player is uninterested in the exploring/socializing aspects & has been told "FATE is about story", they play a character that effectively lives in a portable hole until there is combat rather than "ruining" the game for the other's
- D: A player who wants to achieve something with their character who wants to collect things (or whatever). He's been told that "FATE is about story" and sees that enchanted items cost refresh, since C is playing a blind deaf mute outside of combat and A/B are off doing their own things that kind of exclude him as well, he too leans towards mute/uncertain about involvement without ever realizing that some of those cool toys & things he wants to achieve can be obtained through involvement & assessing/declaring a hanging light into the ballroom so he can swing from it shooting "monsters" along the waylooking badass in the spotlight. Because he's been beat over the head previously in other systems for being a "spotlight hog", he never gets comfortable enough to go about really inserting himself into A, B, & C's areas in ways that direct the spotlight towards him & really shake things up due to the fact that such things would "break" thew game using many other more rigid systems. He also kinda lives in a portable hole not wanting to "hog the spotlight" & break the game, but he occasionally springs out into action pokemon style..
In reality, almost nobody is 100% slanted towards any one thing, but people usually lean towards 1-2 things more than the others. The problem with all the portable hole/pokeball dwelling characters is that the sudden appearance of a few characters that were all but ignored & trying to be deaf mutes really causes problems. It causes even more problems if they have spotty/random attendance because they figure their interest won't come up much this week & nothing is lost for them since it's "probably just going to be a minor milestone I don't need" instead of an experience accumulation.
I might not know a thing about, or be interested in boxing... but this randomly selected muhammed Ali fight i just listened to is a pretty damned cool "story" that FATE could handle easily even though almost nobody would call it a "story" (being at work, I can't exactly go hunting for one with a more active announcer)
Haru's comment about getting players to say what their character is doing is relevant to this whole thread. The original reframing I did in the first three posts was designed to help players accomplish just that by explaining something alien to them in terms that are more familiar to them & make it easier for them to think about how to do more than push numbers around the table.
The one in 5 or so (if that) players I have sit down that are familiar with the dresdenverse are usually so paralyzed by the thought of conflicting with the cannon in the books that they are afraid to step out of their portable hole very often, "when do we meet Harry/Marcone/etc, or can I play Harry?" is usally more of a problem for them. Woe to the GM who gets one of them as an A or B type player as the only other player with a C or D type player's first session. By describing things in a more typical fantasy style, both sides of that coin are (hopefully )less afraid of taking the reins & doing more narrating than "pushing numbers around", the game can be more healthy.
@Tetrasodium: Do you need / want all of the detailed options in your elemental descriptions? I find it easier to simply state "The Element of Fire can do anything you can reasonably describe as being caused by fire." The only element which may need more description than that is Spirit. And that's probably more about defining just what Spirit is...Probably not really, no, most of it was just for example purposes that might have gone too far
I'm not sure if I totally understand what you're saying, but...why the anger?
I tried taking the test, but I didn't have a good answer for most of the questions. They were all binary choices, and often both of them were wrong.
For example:
I'd just say "that sucks" and keep playing.
(I picked that one because I think I'm probably in the majority there.)
I don't think I'm some kind of special mold breaker here. I think it's just a crummy test, with categories that simply don't cover everyone.
Oh, I do play RPGs.
But mostly because I like reading and writing them. Not because of any particular part of the play experience.
See, that 4dF vs d6-d6 question is genuinely interesting to me. Stuff like that is the reason I show up to the table.
This tends to give playstyle models a lot of trouble.
It really sounds like your problem is that at least one of your players doesn't actually want to play.I've repeatedly considered it before yes, but it seemed rather odd considering he kept showing up by choice from the getgo & continued doing so for several months.
It's possible that I'm misunderstanding the model here. So, please give me a hand here.It's possible that I'm misunderstanding the model here. So, please give me a hand here.
Which one of your profiles would be interested in considering the relative merits of 4dF vs d6-d6?
See, it seems to me that your model is mostly about playing games. But honestly, I play games as a side activity for my real hobby of reading and writing them. I like playing, but I can't fit myself into a play-centric category.
If setting is an issue, set the game in the never never.
Other than that, It sounds like typical frustration with new players. IF the game is still running try and focus on one element of mechanics per week. Master that element. Bring it up as often as possible. Then if the players are getting it, move on. If not, repeat the next week.
Also I have no idea about refining the elements. Those first few posts were impossible to read.
Technically he dragged himself. One of the beautiful things about life is actions have consequences.I tried that too but it made things more of a hassle. He tried to flash his badge once & get past security of a paranoid rich & powerful fifth law violator CEO of a company using undead labor in a private sweatshop type thing. The when that attempt failed to get the players interested in doing anything about the obvious threads (like a fog& motion detector filled hallway that reeked of death& ex special forces type security staff among other things), I decided to have the guy call the mayor & things to call down heat on mike the cop. He kept telling me that he wanted to "get back" at the guy for that & I kept telling him to do something about it, involve him in something, or make an assessment/declaration that leads towards that path with nothing coming from itr yet again whenever he brought it up
That's would work, but generally if you're dragging a character into the plot, it's not going to end well. at least in my experience.This. It's even worse when you drag them into the plot & they bend over backwards trying to avoid it. I tried Q&A stuff with the folks. "Mike" with the cop's character wanted to marry his character's do nothing involved in nothing girlfriend & her parent's (*who also were rich & did nothing like). Figuring "ok, I'll have her finsd something/get kidnapped" one of the other players could get involved in due to it being more their area & ask for HIS help in fixing it. In both cases, he went out of his way to be uninvolved wanting to "tank"but doing nothing to put himself in harm's way between the occasional foe & the group. After her bringing a problem to him failed so miserably, I tried kidnapping her & things went even worse with the player getting really upset that I would abuse his character's girlfriend by having her get kidnapped (& locked in a lab by RCV to research something, nothing horrible & traumatic). He started showing up irregularly after that & I eventually got fed up one day after not seeing him a few weeks combined with no answer to phone/text/email in that time & said to the group "ok I'm not sure if mike's coming back,. lets just say his character... " and was about to say something to the extend of " fulfill all his dreams & runs off to vegas to live happily with his girl after marrying her there" but one of the other players interrupted me first with "sneaks off to hide & calls the cops?... oh yea that too cool"