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Messages - CrusherJen

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DF Spoilers / Re: Twelve Months - What our you expecting from it?

« on: May 24, 2024, 09:10:58 PM »

I'd definitely like to see Tilly come back at some point, and I think having him involved with the Librarians would be fitting. (Advancing two plot threads with one character is cool!

)

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 29, 2023, 06:38:05 PM »

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Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it? You think she is that stupid? The answer is no, she isn't

No, Mab isn't stupid. But even after a thousand years, I doubt Mab knows everything there is to know about anything, including free will. She pretty much proves this by the way she treats Harry at the start of his tenure as Winter Knight. She demands his unconditional obedience, vastly underestimating his force of will and spirit of defiance. That's not just the wrong way to go with someone like him, it's the worst way to deal with him, and if she was so expert in matters of free will, she should have known that, too-- but she didn't. Even the smartest people can get things wrong, and Mab's no exception to that.

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2011 DC signing
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There’s a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we’ll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book.

I think that's pretty clear. And it's our choice whether to believe it or not.

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No, then again, they may have had a better chance... Also this wasn't about spoon feeding Harry about their plot, it was about being honest with him that this wasn't about repaying a favor to Nic, it was about vengeance for Marcone.

The books tell us repeatedly that it is not in the nature of the fae to give anything away for free, unless there's a prior bargain or obligation that demands it. So Mab can't just tell Harry everything up front-- that would be going against her nature as a Queen of the fae. It's possible that if Harry had asked more questions, relying on the debt a Queen owes a Knight, he might have found out more... but we didn't see it in the text.

And even if he had asked, and gotten answers, it might not have made any difference to the outcome. Mab and Marcone's planning shaped the battlefield where events took place, but I'm not sure either of them could have fully predicted the Denarians' actions once they got there. Only Nic, Dierdre, and maybe the other hidden coin-wielders knew their whole side of the plan... and they weren't telling. The non-Denarian members of the party were given as little information as possible, on a need-to-know basis-- and Tessa was a wild card trying to upset the whole caper. Harry did the best he could, but it wasn't enough to save everyone. The deaths were the fault of the Denarians' actions, not Mab. I don't think Harry believes otherwise (although he still feels guilt, because he's Harry.) He said what he did to Mab and Marcone to deliberately manipulate them into paying weregild, and it worked. It's a means to an end, not entirely true in itself. Harry's not above a little deception of his own if it's for a worthy cause.

And while I agree that the whole book was far more about revenge on Nic than about merely returning a favor, I don't see it as one thing or the other, either/or. Mab-the-Chessmaster knows how to accomplish multiple things with one action. So both "repaying the debt" and "roaring rampage of revenge" can be true at the same time.

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That's why there is a "modify post" button... For that and really dumb spelling and grammar errors made either late at night when half asleep or early in the morning half asleep without coffee..

Thank you for understanding!

I try not to rely on edits too much, but I'm glad we have them, for when my brain isn't running fast enough.

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 28, 2023, 10:16:04 PM »

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What does the failure of preventing Maeve and Lea from getting infected have to do with her not knowing what the rules regarding free will are?

The point is to prove that Mab can be wrong, and Mab can make mistakes, rather than assuming everything she says is just lie after lie. WOJ itself said she was wrong, she believed what she was saying, she did not lie. If she believed what she said, then she believed her understanding of the rules regarding free will was the truth. Just because she was ignorant of the greater cosmic truth Uriel shared does not make her a liar.

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she and Marcone schemed on their plan for vengeance for some time and said nothing to Harry about it and innocent people got hurt.

Yeah, that tends to happen when Denarians who have no value for human life decide to take action. Neither of us can reasonably prove that it would or could have been avoided if Mab had gone against her nature and spoon-fed Harry every infinitesimal detail of their plotting.

The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.

Edit to add: I just had a thought. The anger probably wasn't just that Mab got played, it was also because of the implied damage to Winter's reputation, which is one of Mab's responsibilities to uphold as Queen. I can see her approving the use of fae-style manipulation in other matters, but any threat to Winter is serious business.

Why do some of the best thoughts only come after hitting the Post button?

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 28, 2023, 08:41:14 PM »

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Mab did deceive Harry about what the plan was, he and Molly confront her and Marcone.

Did she? I think she complied with the terms of the counter-offer Harry gave her when he became Winter Knight: he'd do what she wanted him to do, as long as he got free will in how it got done. Mab made sure he understood what her intentions were, and that was all she was obligated to do, by Harry's own request.

What is Mab always trying to get Harry to do? She says it directly in my quotation: "think." She wants him to look at every angle of a situation, consider all the possibilities, and be ready to act upon whatever opportunities come up. She's not going to spoon-feed Harry every single detail of her and Marcone's plan-- that would be inconsistent with her character as it's been established in the books. She expects him to figure it out. She said so, right there in the elevator. And Harry's been working with her long enough to know how Mab operates. He knows she's always got intricate plans within plans and counters for any contingencies. So if he ~~needed~~ wanted more information in advance, why didn't he ask for it during the setup phase of the caper?

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Mab should know by now what the rules governing the free will of mortals are, right? However that doesn't stop her from saying that Harry is hers to shape as she pleases. Don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to say that Mab was simply mistaken?

No, I don't. I'm satisfied by the Word of Jim that said she was wrong. Mab isn't infallible; she failed to prevent Maeve and Lea from getting Nfected, after all. She can, and does, make mistakes. I also like Dina's take on it:

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Still, I keep my interpretation. Mab did not want to change Harry into a popsicle or a monster. She can shape him in a way that pleases her...which is basically allowing Harry be Harry. That pleases her. She is absolutely trying to deceive both Alfred and Harry into believing that she could change Harry into a monster or a bad guy or whatever, but she did not really say that. Uriel intervened because Harry was interpreting those words in the way Mab wanted.

Mab has made it clear more than once that Harry's shaping up to be a useful Knight, despite her annoyance at his occasional acts of disrespect. She's proud of his actions during Battle Ground. She's getting what she needs from him, so she's got no logical reason to interfere with that... and Mab is very, very logical. But she's not going to come out and say that directly, because the fae love their word games, and they expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with those games. Harry's getting better at it... and that pleases her too.

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 27, 2023, 11:54:02 PM »

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So Eb isn't always truthful, but Mab is a deceiver... In Skin Game she neglected to tell Harry what her and Marcone's real plan was.

Skin Game, hardcover first edtion, page 25:

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"Do I seem stupid to you, my Knight?" she asked. "Think."

I eyed her. Mab's voice was perfectly calm. After what I'd said to her, the defiance I'd offered her, I hadn't expected that. She had never been shy about showing her outrage when she felt it had been earned. This perfect poise was... not out of character, precisely, but I had expected a good deal more intensity than she was displaying. My defiance endangered her plans, and that never left her in a good mood.

Unless...

I closed my eyes and ran back through her words in my head.

"Your precise instructions," I said slowly, "were to go with Nicodemus and help him until such time as he completed his objective."

"Indeed," Mab said. "Which he stated was to remove the contents of a vault." She leaned down, took a fistful of my shirt in her hand, and hauled me back to my feet as easily as she might heft a Chihuahua. "I never said what you would do after."

I blinked at that. Several times. "You..." I dropped my voice. "You want me to double-cross him?"

"I expect you to repay my debt by fulfilling my instructions," Mab replied. "After that..." Her smile returned, smug in the shadows. "I expect you to be yourself."

"Whatever Nicodemus has going this time... you want to stop him, too," I breathed.

She tilted her head, very slightly.

"You know he's not going to honor the truce," I said quietly. "He's going to try to take me out somewhere along the line. He's going to betray me."

"Of course," she said. "I expect superior, more creative treachery on your part."

"While still keeping your word and helping him?" I demanded.

Her smile sharpened. "Is it not quite the game?" she asked. "In my younger days, I would have relished such a novel challenge."

"Yeah," I said. "Gee. Thanks."

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 27, 2023, 09:35:16 PM »

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As the saying goes, "takes one to know one.." Eb is no angel, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about this, or he is a liar or deliberately lying to Harry.

But he did lie to Harry, deliberately. He knew Harry was desperately lonely and craving a connection, and he still withheld the knowledge that he was Harry's grandfather, and he let Harry think he had no family for twenty years, if the timeline is accurate. So we know Eb isn't always truthful.

And even if he thinks he's truthful, he can still be wrong... like when he lost control of his power and almost killed Harry in their fight. If Harry hadn't thought ahead and gotten help from one of those "deceptive, untrustworthy, lying fae", he wouldn't be alive after their battle. So no, Eb's not some perfect, unbiased, infallible source of all knowledge of the Dresden Files world, and I don't believe we should take him as one. I think there's been more than enough evidence in the books to acknowledge that.

As for the rest of it... yes, Uriel's words are a many-birds-one-stone solution, but the root of the situation is still Lasciel reinforcing Harry's fears and doubts with her seven words, solidifying them into "facts" in his mind. IMHO, those are the lies Uriel is countering. Consider Archimedes' words: "Give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough, and I will move the world." Mab's claim that she could change Harry, which she fully believed was true, was the place to stand, the lever was Harry's considerable willpower, and thus Lasciel's lies were uprooted and destroyed.

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 27, 2023, 06:10:18 PM »

Considering Eb is also so blinded by rage against White Court vamps that he snubbed one grandson and nearly killed the other one because of it, I wouldn't take anything Eb says without a healthy heaping of salt. He is not an unbiased, objective source for information.

Eb's also not exactly the poster child for "free will," since if he had his way, Harry would abandon his daughter and turn his back on Thomas. He has his own agenda for Harry, which may or may not be linked to White Council politics... and there's a lot we don't know yet about those wizards' intrigues.

Edit to add: Let's not forget, Eb perpetrated one of the biggest lies (by omission) in the whole series-- he neglected to tell Harry they were related... for years. So he isn't above deceptions of his own when he feels it's necessary. "Pot, kettle, all day long."

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 25, 2023, 08:54:16 PM »

Quote from: Mira on October 25, 2023, 07:20:00 PM

Not exactly true, just because you believe something doesn't make it true.

Yes. But just because something isn't true doesn't make it a lie. It's only a lie if there's a deliberate intention to deceive. Say Alice walks into a room and spots a cardboard box on the table. It's got "M&Ms 12 pieces" printed on the sides, so Alice says "oh cool, it's candy!" When she opens the box, she finds packing material... and a couple of Dresden Files paperbacks inside. Was she wrong? Yes. Did Alice lie? No-- she had every reason to believe there were M&Ms inside the box. She didn't have enough information for it to be a lie. Wrong does not always equal lie.

Mab's got a lot of reasons to believe she can get what she wants from Harry, exactly as she wants it. She's a master manipulator, and she's had ample practice in bending others to her will. Because she believes there's no other road to what she wants, she's not lying when she offers Harry two options: "do as I say, or die." But Mab is wrong. Harry's found a third option-- his stubborn method of cooperation-within-limits is still giving her the needed results while maintaining his own free will. Mab spoke from a very narrow viewpoint which didn't allow other possibilities, or a full understanding of Harry's determination. It's arrogant, short-sighted, and flat-out wrong, but there was no deception involved, and therefore no lie.

Looking at what Uriel said, there is a difference between

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Lies, Mab cannot change who you are.

and the actual text from the book:

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Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.

The comma connects the two statements, making them part of the same concept. But Uriel's comment is two separate sentences, making the relation between them more ambiguous. "Lies" on its own tells us somebody's lying, but it doesn't say who, largely because Uriel had no words to spare. But since the narrative specifically places these seven words as a balance and counterargument to Lasciel's seven words, it's not out-of-line to view them as a direct reference to Lasciel's speech, not Mab's.

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If he didn't mean Mab, he wouldn't have said, Mab.

And if he wanted to say Mab was lying, he could have said, "Mab lies about changing who you are." It would have nicely fit the seven-word pattern. But he didn't. He simply said, "Mab cannot change who you are." That in and of itself only implies that Mab's claims were wrong, not true... but again, wrong does not necessarily equal lie. And while one can argue that as the White God's spymaster, Uriel might not just come out and say what he thinks directly... I can't believe he didn't deliberately craft his statement for maximum effect. Harry (and the readers) are meant to consider Uriel's words very carefully.

Unfortunately, it's still ambiguous enough for readers to see different things in those words. I see it as Lasciel lying, you see it as Mab lying. We'll probably get a more clear answer eventually, since we haven't seen the last of Uriel, Lasciel or Mab yet, but until then, I'm thinking it's YMMV.

DF Spoilers / Re: Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

« on: October 25, 2023, 07:07:38 PM »

My two cents (and it's probably worth about that much, LOL):

One can believe every word they're saying... and still be flat-out wrong. That doesn't mean they're actually, deliberately lying.

In Cold Days, Mab-the-Chessmaster describes Molly's apprenticeship to Harry as a masterful manipulation and exploitation of weakness and need. Because Harry's the narrator, we know that's not how he sees it at all... and yet, from a certain point of view, it's kinda-sorta true. She can't understand Harry's motivations of decency, morality, loyalty, and free will, because she had to cast all that aside a long time ago to do her job. It's a blind spot for her now, something she dismisses as irrelevant. She's not lying about her interpretation of events... but at the end of the day, she's still wrong about Harry. Wrong doesn't equal lie here.

Mab believes completely that she can mold Harry into what she wants him to be as Knight. That's not a lie, because she believes it, but it's still not the complete truth of the matter. Harry can, and does, resist Mab's attempt to reshape him into an emotionless extension of Mab's will... though so far, it's working out fairly well for both of them. Mab's fairly pleased that Harry's growing in both power and political savvy. Maybe she sees that as part of the shaping process? >shrug<

I believe Uriel's words weren't really a direct counter to Mab herself-- they were a balance to what Lasciel said, up to the very number of words used. Lasciel was encouraging Harry to believe everything was all his fault, that he was all out of options, that he was locked into losing himself to Winter and had no hope to resist. I believe those lies, Lasciel's lies, were the ones Uriel was referring to, not Mab's words themselves. Harry internalized and believed Lasciel's version of events, exactly as she'd planned, until Uriel pointed out the weak spot in her arguments in a very concise manner. He pointed directly at the flaw in the one place Harry could best act upon-- resisting Mab. And once Harry realized that he still had options, Lasciel's lies fell apart.

So when Uriel says "Lies," IMHO he wasn't referring to Mab at all, but Lasciel. It would have helped us out if he'd been a lot more specific, but he only had 7 words...

(Credit due to g33k and vincentric earlier, as their posts helped me shape this one.)

DF Spoilers / Re: Dabble Interview 23 August 2023

« on: August 30, 2023, 06:00:40 AM »

Well, yes, but it's a different type of "supernatural." Red vamps aren't human anymore, where a wizard is kind of "human with an upgrade." And half-Ramps like Susan are caught halfway between human and other... or maybe just frozen mid-transition. It's been a long time since I've read the earlier books, but if I'm remembering right, Susan only had partial Ramp abilities, and she was still human enough to have a child. So she wasn't fully supernatural before she turned... yet she wasn't 100% typical human either. 🤷‍♀️

DF Spoilers / Re: Dabble Interview 23 August 2023

« on: August 28, 2023, 04:04:58 PM »

Quote from: Mira on August 28, 2023, 10:31:56 AM

While that is true, we do know that before she was infected, she showed nothing.

This is true. And over on the Dresden side of the family... we have a very small sample size, but there seems to be a pretty good possibility it will be passed down (father, daughter, and both grandchildren all show some level of ability.) I expect Maggie will have power of some sort... but I've been wrong before. 🤷‍♀️ It's up to Jim.

DF Spoilers / Re: Dabble Interview 23 August 2023

« on: August 27, 2023, 07:11:30 PM »

A Red vampire, even a half-turned one, isn't supernatural?

Though I suppose that begs the question of what we define as "supernatural" in the world of Dresden, and yeah, that's a headache. 😔 Maybe it's safer to say Susan wasn't a "typical mortal" at the time of Maggie's conception. I wonder if that's the kind of influence that might increase the odds of Maggie becoming a wizard, or not. We only know what Harry knows about such things... and there's so much Harry doesn't know. 🤷‍♀️

DF Spoilers / Re: Dabble Interview 23 August 2023

« on: August 27, 2023, 04:05:14 AM »

I agree with both Mira and g33k: Maggie can't inherit Rampness or anything of a vampiric nature directly from Susan.

But-- we've been told that children in utero are exposed to their mother's magic, and that can affect their likelihood of becoming a wizard themselves. It happened with Charity and Molly; despite Charity denying her magic, there was enough influence left during the pregnancy for Molly to develop a talent of her own.

Susan wasn't a wizard, but she still had something supernatural about her nature-- plus she had the magical tattoos that warned when her Rampness was in danger of taking over. I think it's possible that such early exposure might tip the scales toward little Maggie developing her own wizardry abilities someday. It's not quite the same thing as Maggie "inheriting" Ramp powers. It's (IMHO) a question of increasing Maggie's odds of being magically strong enough to become a practitioner, if not a full wizard herself.

I could be wrong. But it's a theory (or maybe a WAG.) 🤷‍♀️

DF Spoilers / Re: Dabble Interview 23 August 2023

« on: August 25, 2023, 12:40:31 AM »

Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on August 24, 2023, 02:14:00 PM

Fitz doesn’t have a broad enough talent to be a wizard, but I could see him apprenticing to Mort.

This makes sense! I'd love to see Fitz show up again, but his skill set does match Mort's more closely than Harry's.

I do think Maggie will have some sort of ability/talent at some point; Mom was a half-Ramp, Dad's a wizard, so the odds are stacked in favor of her being magically-inclined. (Plus who else would Harry have caught conjouritis from? School kids are a vector for germs, after all. Even if her abilities haven't kicked in yet, Maggie could still carry it. 🤣) But is she old enough yet for her power to awaken? Maybe one of her school friends will be the new apprentice.

DF Spoilers / Re: Rudy up on charges?

« on: June 01, 2023, 07:53:25 PM »

Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on June 01, 2023, 05:42:02 PM

Rudolph is internal affairs someone was pulling strings to get him on that case, but it wouldn’t bear long-term scrutiny it was part of the pressure tactics on Harry and other key figures prior to the Titans arrival- I suspect Nameless, as a lawyer for the Mob he has the knowledge , but couldn’t use Marcone’s connections, too close to home.

Rudy is far more likely to face IA himself for his actions at the daycare, those were cops kids, and Bradley and the day care supervisor were witnesses.

Good catch! That could definitely happen... and it should.

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