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Messages - Nudge

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DFRPG / Re: Running Dresden RPG at a con... need some feedback
« on: May 20, 2010, 03:04:46 PM »
How about leaving some Aspects open, but having a number of index cards with Aspects pre-written on them.  Let the players pick/get their pre-gen, and then they can either fill in Aspects themselves or look through the stack and pick a few.

That gives you a quicker system that keeps the idea of choice while guiding the hands of those that are frozen with the wide choices.  You can also put in Aspects that you know will be applicable to the adventure.

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DFRPG / Re: The First Law Question.
« on: April 30, 2010, 08:16:29 PM »
If that's the case, you can learn anything you want ABOUT the Outsiders, you just can't Open the Outer Gates to interact with them. Of course, I'm sure that the WC feels that it's unnecessary for anyone besides the Gatekeeper to know any about the Outsiders, or that it's unlikely that anyone would have a good reason to learn about them. Thus the stigma on learning anything at all about Outsiders, which might have made it unofficially part of the law as far as the Wardens and execution are concerned.

Remember: Knowledge is power.  At what point do you have enough grains of sand to have a pile?  When is your knowledge of the Beyond corrupting?  Best to play it safe because some things may not be easy to identify a hard line on.

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DFRPG / Re: Shadow Magic
« on: April 30, 2010, 01:07:45 AM »
The poor guy is only getting thirteen minutes of sleep per day as is. ;)

It's a rule. Can't have more than thirteen...

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DFRPG / Learning: First Impression
« on: April 30, 2010, 12:12:25 AM »
Rapport can be used to actively make an First Impression.  Presence can passively make a First Impression.

If I were to have a social conflict involving a PC, an NPC, and First Impression (and I like the idea of throwing an aspect into the start of a conflict to help set the tone when strangers are conflicting), should I:

1) Have a quick contest vs the NPC resistance and give the PC either a positive or negative Aspect based on the result
2) Have a quick contest of their respective First Impression-making skills and give the winner a positive Aspect
3) Have a quick contest of their respective First Impression-making skills and give the PC the choice of whether the winner gets a positive Aspect or the loser a negative
4) Have both sides make their roll and their defense and give both positive or negative aspects as appropriate based on their skill succeeding
5) Not do any of these and force the characters to take exchanges after the conflict has started if they want to go for a First Impression

Notes: I realize I can play it anyway I want and I realize I need not use dice for every interaction.  I'm going for what the general expectation would be (or author's intentions) in such a situation when I was using dice

#1 leaves out the NPC's Impression making skills
#2 & #3 leave out the PC's resistance
#4 seems like a large number of potential aspects
#5 defies the concept of "passive" First Impressions

I'm currently leaning towards #4, but I don't have any real examples of First Impression. 

Thanks!

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DFRPG / Re: Learning: Don't Leave!
« on: April 29, 2010, 11:46:44 PM »
dice don't even need to be involved for many of them.

Of course...but I asked for you to humor me. :)

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If the NPC has a partial inclination to stop anyway then it won't even matter what the player does, almost anything will keep him from leaving.

Ah, but if the NPC is inclined to leave, it's a trick to get him to stay, and your level of skill at that trick is measured by a...skill.  How many times in a narrative does the hero stop or get stopped for a moment with a choice phrase?

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If dice need to be involved you don't need have to think of it as block. The exchange can be thought of as a contest instead. They are practically the same thing in this situation, and since its not like it is actual combat the simpler one is just that, simpler

True, but if the NPC stops there likely COULD be a social conflict, so why not use the model?  So few games have good rules for modeling social conflict, why avoid them when there is an actual social conflict that could be both significant and fun?

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No matter which option is chosen, just roll a contest and see who wins. If the PC wins the guy stays for a number of exchanges equal to the shift, if the NPC wins then he gets away. If there is a tie the NPC gets away but the PC gains some minor bit of information about him that will help track him down later, like maybe a matchbook from a bar falls out of the NPCs pocket as he dodges around the PC.

I admire the description, but it's outside what I was looking for.  I presented the options I was considering and was trying to work out the details of how they functioned.  Luminos gave me a solid answer (thanks!) that helped me with the part I was grappling with: Rolling dice to walk away feels weird.  But if I consider doing the same thing in a physical conflict, I'd not blink at rolling, say, Might, to push past something (and walking away).  In particular, I needed to realize that there isn't a -1 for a supplemental action: Walking IS the action with no roll needed.  The roll just ALLOWS the action.

Thanks to all, I'm good here.  I'm sorry to be mysterious, but if this pans out, I'm sure it will be useful to others.  I expect I'll have additional questions as time moves forward.


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DFRPG / Re: Learning: Don't Leave!
« on: April 29, 2010, 10:33:24 PM »
I want to point out that "leaving a scene" is not like a computer game or something else like that where they hit the border and instantly disappear.  You could chase after them (not an attack) call out to them (possibly an attack) or do some combination of those two. 

In this case, it is (Can't say more without revealing the sekrit), which is why I specified that the PC couldn't give chase, but your point is otherwise valid.

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DFRPG / Re: Learning: Don't Leave!
« on: April 29, 2010, 09:37:46 PM »
I'd probably do it as a block using an appropriate skill to the situation.

Thematically I prefer block, but how would you resolve any attempt to leave? 

If I get a Good (+2) Intimidate Block to prevent you from leaving, does this mean you are free to take action on me EXCEPT for leaving?  Does trying to leave take up my action if I fail to get past your block?  What am I rolling to overcome your block?


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DFRPG / Learning: Don't Leave!
« on: April 29, 2010, 09:23:02 PM »
As part of a sekrit project I'm working on:

Simple hypothetical: A PC sees another character leaving a scene.  He doesn't want to do any form of attack, can't give chase, he doesn't know much of anything about the other party to start bringing in Aspects, and he has time for only a single exchange before the other departs.

My thought is: Do a first Impression check to possibly give someone an Aspect, then let the PC make an Intimidation check as a Block (or other skill, but let's say Intimidate for this example).  The departing character can make a check (Conviction?  Discipline?) to beat the block and depart on their action, or fail and....

Or is this more like an Intimidate maneuver to apply "rethinking departing", which the NPC can try and shed on their turn (taking a -1 for their departure as a supplemental, that only applies if they win?) 

What's the best way, mechanically, to demonstrate this?  (And I do actually want to do it with rolls rather than only raw RP - humor me)

Thanks!

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DFRPG / Re: Laws of Magic and other supernaturals
« on: April 28, 2010, 10:24:59 PM »
If I understand correctly, the laws of magic only have jurisdiction on wizards (of any types). What about the other supernatural types. Do they have certain types of laws managing their magic?

Can Changeling, who use the sponsored seelie magic for example, mind control (charm) anyone without raising issues with the white counsel?

The _White Council_ has no jurisdiction over non-humans.

That said, the Laws of Magic are fundamental things that the White Council just tries to adhere to.  I'd say any PC is bound to the Laws of Magic.  Once they drop to 0 or negative refresh, they lose that final spark of humanity and Free Will and become a creature with a nature but not a choice.

So a changeling PC or even a full on Vampire (given enough refresh) can be a PC and be (mechanically) bound my the Laws of Magic.  The White Council won't pay much attention, but the player and PC should.

Just my view.

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DFRPG / Re: Lawbreakers: Do We Need Them?
« on: April 28, 2010, 08:51:02 PM »
Do away with them if that suits you for your play, but if you do I doubt you could credibly consider your game to be a Dresden Files game despite the other cosmetic similarities. :)

Does this apply to all variations, or just the ones that remove penalties for being a Lawbreaker?

I ask because I remember reading the creation and seeing Harry get Lawbreaker and thinking "Cool concept, but very few players are going to elect to hurt their character strength out of the gate like that when they can hurt their characters in other, more interesting ways with Aspects that DON'T cost them 1 refresh for no real benefit at all".

I love Lawbreaker as a rule of the universe.  I expect it will encourage players to avoid the easy-but-destructive paths and PCs to behave more...human.  I don't like the cost at creation, so I expect if someone ACTUALLY expresses interest in playing a character like Harry (not talking about a casual killer) that I'll not dock their refresh...unless they cross that line again once play begins.  To me that seems like a meta-game mechanic to encourage players to have "flawed" characters rather than a departure from the core concept.  Am I off-base?

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DFRPG / Re: Lawbreakers: Do We Need Them?
« on: April 28, 2010, 08:45:21 PM »
But if I use an Aspect for Lawbreaking...
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He brocke the Law many times so he has the aspect: My wish is your Order.

Note I'm recommending Aspect ONLY for creation, and ONLY for characters that "slipped".  (See Title Character of Game :))  Basically you're giving them the Stunt without reducing their refresh, with the proviso that breaking the law again WILL reduce their refresh.  Pro story, minus balance penalty, maintaining ongoing rules.

Playing someone that will happily break the law again doesn't bring up any desire from me to shelter them from the costs.

Playing someone that has a problem but is trying to get over it sounds awesomely like an Aspect.  (Expecting to fail is a different problem).   As far as getting rid of the Stunt, see the Redemption discussion in the book.  In terms of Aspects, that's character evolution, but I'd expect it to be a rare thing regardless.  The Aspect may alter, but the stigma should remain.  

(How many times does an NPC mention that Harry has the stain of Dark Magic? like, twice per book)

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DFRPG / Re: Lawbreakers: Do We Need Them?
« on: April 28, 2010, 07:23:29 PM »
Do you actually think lawbreakers (the stunts) are actually needed?

I've had the same concern you did: punishing someone for a choice that otherwise creates good RP.  I had two solutions in my head:

1) Extend the bonus to related actions to "tempt" the player. (Just as others have come up with)
OR
2) For characters coming into play with it, Skip the Refresh cost and have them take an Aspect.  They get punished in game, but get Fate points as their reward, the equal of other characters.  They can exercise a bonus by invoking it (representing the temptation and slippery slope).  Break the Law again and they get the Stunt. 

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DFRPG / Re: The Cutoff
« on: April 26, 2010, 04:16:15 PM »
I do think we've gotten it better than it would have been if it had gone to press three weeks ago when the preorder started, but some issues simply won't be resolved and -- in a few cases -- won't be viewed by Evil Hat as something that *needs* to be resolved in a general case. The tools are there to tweak the game to work for you at your table. Pursue that, with a passion, and our blessing.

Awesome.  I think the game is awesome, I think anywhere I didn't understand what you (the authors) were saying has been addressed, and I eagerly await the deadtree version. 

Thanks for putting the game together, for having the Early Bird version, and for reading and considering our questions.

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DFRPG / Re: Problem Stunts
« on: April 25, 2010, 04:40:31 PM »
Uh, both those are more Minor Consequences, not Moderate or Severe.


I'm glad I'm not your Dean :)  I was shooting for Moderate in my choices. 

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Shit that definitely take a while and help to get over. And they’re what you need Stunts to help with. Maybe that’s what you’re having trouble with?

Yes.  My reasons are three fold:

1) People get over such things in reality without trained help.  Not always, and trained help makes it more likely, but trained help has existed only for a short span of humanity (and arguably has only been helpful for part of a century) and while some people carry trauma they never recover from, most people are shaped by it without it interfering with their daily lives.  Heck, almost all of us have encountered things like "Bitter Divorce" or "Death of a Loved One" that takes more than a scene to recover from and yet we muddle through with only the support of (untrained) friends and family.  Training helps - no argument - but I don't see it as required. 

2) Fun in the game.  The time aspect of consequences provides plenty of incentive to avoid them.  The GM can say "Look, resharpening your knives does NOT count as working on recovery to your bitter grief, you need to do something to start recovery".  Having a group work to ensure that they've got the stunts among them, as un-fun "requirements" so they can avoid having truly long lasting penalties doesn't sound like the right approach.  Require an RP scene, make a roll (or involve a compel), and recovery has either started or it hasn't.  Training can give a bonus to said roll, improving odds that recovery does start.

3) True to material.  (Note: I've only read the first 4 books thus far, still struggling to find an ebook source for my Sony Reader, so if I'm wrong about later books, feel free to correct me).  Harry carries lots of guilt and trauma.  I'm not seeing him have an encounter and then making an appointment with his therapist.  No, one of his friends stops by and starts a scene like "Harry, you need to stop isolating yourself/holding back your emotions/blaming yourself for what happened to (insert name here)/PIssing off the Council".  (Okay, that latter's not due to trauma).  Sometimes it starts him thinking right off, sometimes it takes a scene or two, but he comes around.  I sincerely doubt Harry surrounds himself with allies that all have the necessary stunt.

Basically #2 is my primary driver though.  Consequences require WORK to fix, I get that, I encourage that.  I don't see _requiring_ stunts to start that recovery as fun, I see requiring(encouraging) roleplaying as fun. 


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DFRPG / Problem Stunts
« on: April 25, 2010, 01:44:51 PM »
Going through the Stunts list, I noticed that a few just didn't seem worthwhile.  (More "didn't appeal", but that's a personal thing - I'm more focused on Stunts that I saw not being worth the expense to the person that worthwhile.)   I also saw one or two that confused me in certain ways. I'm listing them here so others can point out where I'm wrong, or the authors can tell me how it's already been fixed :)

Overall - Recovery Justification: The "justification for recovery" Stunts seem inconsistent, and some seem like a stunt wouldn't be necessary.  (A concussion is bad, but a good roll of relevant knowledge should allow for recovery without a stunt, for example.  Not to mention that I don't think Empathy really helps recover from social consequence "WENT BONKERS AND DANCED NAKED ON THE DEAN'S DESK")

Overall - Faster: The "does this faster" Stunts are hurt by the fact that I can't find strong guidelines for how long things SHOULD take in most cases.  I'd suspect in short order the GM would mentally start adjusting for the existence of the stunt (unintentionally), removing the benefit.  I don't think this is an error, but I personally would tend to be leery of them for that reason or at the very least adopt an "ask how long, argue if it is high, them remind of stunt" policy.

Athletics - Too Fast to Hit:  It says "gain an additional +1 to the roll when making such a move".  First, Couldn't that be multiple moves?  (Full Defense isn't a block).  Second, it's unclear if the bonus +1 applies only if you are moving zones while using Full Defense.

Contacts - Ear to the Ground: Any reason the Difficulty is reduced instead of getting a +2?  I know it works out the same, but it's a bit odd to be different.

Conviction - Resilient Self-Image: I know this was pegged as being too strong; I don't recall what the fix was.

Conviction - Tower of Faith: Armor for both mental AND social seems a bit strong (an argument can be made that physical is more frequent - I'm willing to hear that argument)

Deceit - Pick-Pocket: Actually, this is fine (I like it!) I just found it odd that it didn't include a page reference like the other sections did (page 126)

Deceit - Stage Magician: Why not say the +1 bonus stacks with the Pick Pocket stunt, making it more clear that it applies to pick pocket attempts even if you don't have the stunt?

Empathy - Counselor: See "Recovery Justification" above.  I'd have a hard time arguing with someone that has a high Empathy that they can't work to help someone with a moderate consequence.  Requiring justification is good - requiring stunts for those is harsh. (but that may just be me).  Wouldn't this be better as a bonus to rolls to provide justification?

Endurance - No Pain, No Gain: Already has been ruled too strong; Don't recall the fix

Fists - Martial Artist: See other thread, but (a) I would've assumed that Fists COULD do assessments on fighters without the Stunt (p115 says it's usually perception or knowledge skills, but this seems perfectly appropriate).  and (b) Why is this a prereq (and the only prereq in the game?)  I don't see a problem with dropping the entire prereq concept given the stunts presented.  If you're keeping this Stunt, I'd revise Assessments (p115) to create a hard line that without stunts, it's perception and knowledge skills ONLY.  (Side note: Guns grants Gun Knowledge(p131), why doesn't Fists grant Brawling knowledge?)

Fists - Lethal Weapon: Weapon:2 seems too strong.  Weapon:1?  Or is it because it's only vs unarmored opponents?

Fists - Step Into the Blow: Someone can sacrifice several actions in stack as written (though they'd be reeling from so many failed defenses, it can happen).  That seems...weird.  Round 1: 4 guys smack the center guy, center guy smacks all of them.  They spend the next 3 rounds running/debating/ordering pizza while he waits for an action.

Might - Wrestler: Already fixed to be +1 to maintain a grapple.  (or break?)

Performance - Pointed Performance: I have the desire now to rewrite Hamlet as a series of DFRPG-FATE conflicts... Nothing wrong with the stunt though.

Presence - Teflon Persona: This is fine, but makes Tower of Faith still look too strong.

Weapons - Riposte: See Fists - Step Into the Blow for discussion of limiting how many actions you can sacrifice.  Why is this successful vs that stunts roll at +1?

Comments/Corrections welcome!

















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