Based on a fairly bold assumption that anything that Harry thinks to himself and uses his name is a whisper from an angelic or demonic entity.  I very much doubt that.

Well, as I quoted, Harry died because of the death curse and the death curse occurred because of a thought that was similar in structure to the one in the church. In the GS scene, when he tells Uriel what happened, he says “I remember saying to myself that it was all over. And it was all your fault, Harry.” So at least one thought that ended with ", Harry." was an angelic/demonic whisper. Doesn't mean this one was, but it's not impossible and I think it makes sense.

I think the 8 words you're referring to are a pretty natural thought process when seen in context.  He's wondering why he isn't getting saved by some mysterious force.  Then he realized that no one is coming to save him.  Lots of people, especially when they're trying to motivate themselves, think or say their own name.  I think Harry does it a couple of times, but I don't know for sure.

I'll have to go look, as well. I don't remember that.

Other then that, it's a fairly solid theory.

Thanks.

I'm just not sold on the idea of Uriel lying, or that we've been seeing multiple demonic/angelic whispers throughout the series, and Uriel hasn't mentioned anything before, or now.

The best thing about this "no one is coming" whisper is that it's not a lie. Michael was not being sent.

Edit: Mouse and Butters did run back in, but whenever Harry talked about that night with the other people, he made it sound like he was talking just about Camp White God.

At risk of crossing threads, the Ten Commandments, particularly in this case the one about not bearing false witness.

I think the point of disagreement here is your take on lies of omission. I disagree with that stance.

I don't think there's much to be done beyond agree to disagree here.

My point is that, from my admittedly limited discussions with some of those people, contemporary Asatru do not have it as a core component of their faith that other gods are false, while other gods being a priori false is a regular component of at least such bits of contemporary Christianity as i am familiar with.  (I had a Catholic schooling.)

I understood, I was just pointing out to the other person that they were incorrect about today's RL lore not having Odin around. As another note to that, for the DV, it doesn't matter whether the lore is believed today, but whether it had been believed at all. I think Harry and/or told us that the old gods that no one believes go into the NN and dwindle. So Enki's probably running around in there. [If there are people that still hold to Sumerian beliefs today, just replace Enki with some placeholder deity that no one worships anymore.]


I do think, however, that if fae really truly can not lie (not sure if you've expressed doubt about that before), but let people believe things that are untrue, then it's not really consistent to say that the WG lets modern Christians believe that he's the only god, so he's lying.

In other threads, there has been discussions about the whispers we saw in GS. I felt like we were missing something, so I went back to the previous books.

Let's begin, shall we? [Note: I've incorporated ideas/clues that I've picked up from other threads. I forget who pointed out what, but I appreciate the conversations.]

A slender shadow crouched beside the cot, vague and difficult to notice, even by Uriel’s light—but it was there, and it was leaning as though to whisper in my ear.

And it was all your fault, Harry.

This is the shadow whisper that lead to Harry taking up the WK mantle, ordering his own hit, and then his death.

That's always bothered me. Harry doesn't actually think like that, does he? Internal monologue where he addresses himself by name? That's silly. Of course he wouldn't do that.

Where was Michael? Where was… anyone?

Cassius leaned down and said, “And when I start, Dresden, I want to be free to indulge myself. To really let go and live the moment. I’m sure you understand.”

No one is coming to save you, Harry.

Oh. Well, except for this time, I guess. But that thought didn't ever really do anything.

Quintus Cassius’s liver-spotted face went pale with horrified comprehension. “Wait.”

“Mouse,” I said. “Kill him.”

I had only one open eye with which to watch Cassius meet his end. But in that final second, rage and terror and horrified realization flashed through his eyes. And just as Mouse’s jaws crushed the delicate bones of his neck, there was a flare of ugly energies, a flash of unholy purplish light around him, and he spoke words that rang in echoes totally out of proportion to their volume.

“DIE ALONE,” he spat.

A flood of power hit me and my vision went black.

Okay. So Harry gave up on help coming so he killed Cassius himself and got a death curse for the trouble. But Cassius wasn't that strong, so the death curse didn't really do anything, right?

I thought, Why did I pick the shirt with a bullet hole in it?

Then I fell off the back of the boat, and into the icy water of Lake Michigan.

It hurt, but only for a second. After that, my whole body felt deliciously warm, monstrously tired, and the sleep that had evaded me seemed, finally, to be within reach.

It got dark.

It got quiet.

And I realized that I was all by myself.

"Die alone," whispered a bitter, hateful old man's voice.

Well, crap...WAIT! I got it. He died, so he heard the death curse words. It's not like there was anywhere that the curse could have changed his mind and put him solidly on the path to that death, right?

“You realize,” she said, “that I could change this, Harry. Could find out who you were using to kill yourself. I could take it right out of your head and call them off. You’d never know.”

“You could do that,” I said, quietly. “And I feel like an utter bastard for asking this of you, grasshopper. But I don’t have anyone else to ask.”

“You should call Thomas,” she said. “He deserves the truth.”

Thomas. My brother. My family. He’d be one of little Maggie’s only blood relations once I was gone. And Molly was right. He did deserve the truth.

“No,” I said, barely louder than a whisper. “Tell him later, if you want. After. If you tell him before that, he won’t stand for it. He’ll try to stop it.”

“And maybe he’d be right to do it.”

“No,” I said quietly. “He wouldn’t. But he’d do it anyway. This is my choice, Molls.”

Ummm...so Harry was thinking that Thomas would stop him from ordering the kill and that Molly was right that he deserved to know. But he decided, no, I will not tell Thomas. And that was his last chance to avoid the kill shot. Now he was going to die because of something that made him think he was making his own choice, but he wasn't.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the death curse didn't really influence this at all.

Q: "Did Cassius's death curse get resolved?"

A: "Heck yeah! And that was a factor that Dresden didn't know about that influenced his decision in Changes."

Or maybe not.


But let's go back to that whisper in Dead Beat.

No one is coming to save you, Harry.

One two three four five six seven eight.

But...

And it was all your fault, Harry.

One two three four five six seven. From what Uriel (who may be lying out and out or through omission) told us, shouldn't there be another eight-word whisper somewhere else for balance?

I laughed again. “Tell you what, big guy. Just tell me something. Something useful. I’ll be happy with whatever I get.”

[Uriel] pursed his lips and thought about it for a moment. Then he said, “No matter where you go, there you are.”

Eight words. But we've seen that somewhere before.

My double slipped in front of me again, apparently without needing to cross the intervening space. "It isn't that simple, Harry. No matter where you go, there you are."

But why would Uriel want to remind Harry of subconscious Harry? The seven-word whisper that Uriel wants Harry to believe is him balancing the church's seven-word whisper is:

And a voice—a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”

So...maybe subconscious Harry said something somewhere. Perhaps relating to Lasciel's shadow in his head.

“If I open this door now,” I said slowly. “I might not be able to close it again.”

“Or you might,” my double said. “I have no intention of allowing her any control. So you will be the one who determines it.”

“What if I can’t contain her again once she is freed?”

“Why shouldn’t you be able to? It’s your mind. Your will. Your choice. You still believe in free will, do you not?”

Huh. That sounds a lot like what Uriel might say. And Jim did say Lasciel and Lash were back.



Okay, so here's my take on things. Normal font is stuff from the text, italics if my interpretation/impression/thoughts. My I/I/T are descriptivist here, I'm not taking a stance on the characters' reasons for doing this unless I explicitly state a motivation.

Harry went to town on deDenarianed Cassius, making an enemy. [Death Masks]

Cassius came back with Grevane and attacked Harry. Harry waited for help, but then he realized, with the help of an angelic whisper, that there was no help coming. He fought and had Mouse kill Cassius, but not before Cassius leveled his death curse. [Dead Beat]

Harry's building is set on fire and he breaks his back trying to get the old people out. Uriel sends Sanya a moment too late to save Harry but in time to same the old people. [Changes]

In the church, broken-back Harry gets a whisper that pushes him to accept the WK mantle. Molly almost convinces him to tell Thomas, which would stop the hit, but Cassius' death curse kicks in and makes him order the shot so that he will die.

Harry gets shot and falls into the water. Uriel yanks his soul and sends it back to Chicago six months later. That whole show was that Uriel could tell Harry about the seven-word whispers so that when Harry was back in his body, he would recognize a seven-word whisper and think it was Uriel giving him a truth so that there would be balance.

Uriel set Harry up to break his back and thus to have to accept the WK mantle, but Cassius' death curse is what made him call Kincaid for the hit.


Unresolved questions (for me, at least):

• Was the first eight-word whisper Uriel or a Fallen?
• How did the whisperer know what Cassius' death curse would be? Did he get his own whisper that I haven't seen signs of? It could have been off-screen, I suppose, but Jim usually at least leaves hints.
• If Uriel was the whisperer, did he know that five years down the line, Harry would go after the Red Court and would need Mab's power to do it? At the time of Dead Beat, Maggie Jr. was ~1 yr old.
• Was Uriel's 'there you are' eight-word comment a balance to the one in Dead Beat? That first whisper led to the death curse which led to a false choice that led to Harry's death, after all. Four possibilities that I see are that Uriel's lying about the balance thing, it was for balance but Uriel just didn't tell Harry, Uriel's the one that whispered in DB, it didn't count towards the balance for whatever reason.
• How much are Uriel, Mab, and DR lying to Harry and playing with/against one another.

So, there we go. I'm currently thinking that that the sequence of Harry's death down, at least for the most part.

Thoughts? Additions? Requests for clarifications?


Edit: If a thought that ends with ", Harry." is a sign of an angelic whisper, I need to go through all of the books again.

As described in the book, Childs struck me with an odd vibe.

But I haven't really completely parsed *why* just yet.

Dark complexion, Mediterranean more than African. Angular, bird-of-prey-like nose. Hair is peroxide blond. Arrives early. Eyes' color between dark honey and poison ivy. Strong but not bulky, Harry likens him to a cobra? Newly arrived into Marcone's employ, acting on his behalf while the latter is in Italy. Deadly fast and graceful.

Honestly, when I first read that, I wondered if Apollo had any minions that he might hire out like Odin does Sigrun. Maybe Ra if Marcone's in Italy for the WC?

Well,
1) She almost always showed up as a separate entity when they were talking (any time it wouldn't be too much of a distraction for him), and the flashback Uriel was showing him is certainly not likely to be precisely representative of what a person standing there at the time would have seen. She's 'perceived' as an outside force, for the sake of being perceived at all.

That's reasonable.

2) I think you missed some of the point of this bit of my comment: 
I think (based more on cryptic comments from Jim than anything in the books to date) that Lash did survive in some form, but she may very well not be present in the same manner, or her voice (if she even has one at this point) might not have the power to properly balance the dark-Lash's comments.

I got your point, my response just wasn't clear. I was pushing against the Lies whisper being Uriel. If Lash is still a bit around and on Uriel's side, why couldn't she be the whisperer? Power-schmower, I'm not sure that's necessary for an explicit whisper whose sole purpose isn't to influence, but to remind.

But, if you do want power, I'd remind you what Uriel said to Stu in his job offer. Uriel can take the ruins of a spirit and build on it. I'd need to go back to what Uriel said about Lash's biting-of-the-bullet, but what if enough of that survived for Uriel to build on? [Partial </crazytalk> tag here.]

Or maybe Uriel just wanted to do it hands on, because he sort of promised Harry that he would.

That's a big maybe. <broken record>And given everything else in this series, it seems too easy.</broken record>

Oooh, thought just occurred to me. If Uriel had Lash do it, then Lucifer has to do one of two things: 1) acknowledge the possibility of redemption and that Lash is back in God's fold, or 2) assert that Lash is not working with Uriel, which would still leave Uriel with a seven-word whisper. Uriel wins either way.

Hmm. So the mystery remains.

Can we get this to be the motto of the DF Spoilers board?

That seems an unimportant distinction. What do you think Demonreach should call the tree, if not parasite? My woody thrall? 

Magic is created by life and Demonreach is sitting on/part of(?) a leyline, which is a concentration of magic. So I would think that he'd call a tree part of the magical cycle.

You are of course assuming that Cowl is human.  Have we seen proof of that anywhere?

At first I laughed, but now I'm thinking...