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Messages - toodeep

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I don't believe that Blood on his Soul survived.  I believe that Nic is so wanted that the only place he could hide was by pretending to be Blood on his Soul.  With the power of his fallen angel, he could easily pretend to be someone else with a fallen angel....
And that hate he has for Harry is still very, very real

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DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: December 01, 2021, 08:39:00 PM »
You don't want to do a field trip you don't want to let people know about the outer Gates because that's just another venue the bad guys to attack. Not everybody is an outsider they might have different reasons to f*** s*** up

All the important people with truly "f*** s*** up" power already know.  Dracul, the mothers, Mab, Titania, the senior council, Denarians, dragons, odin, etc.  They all know about it.  Heck, they all clearly know more about it than Harry since they all know more about Starborn than he does.  I'm talking about him getting some of the people at his level that can serve as speedbumps to him at a critical time in the know to help clear them out of the way.  None of them are going to be threats to the status quo.  But if Fix had known more about this, and maybe understands that "oppose winter at all times" is a bad mantra, then things like them fighting like they did earlier may be avoided in the future.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Harry creates a portal to Demonreach!
« on: December 01, 2021, 07:56:03 PM »
We've seen many things (mab, greymen, etc.) get summoned to demonreach, so we know that is possible.  Could Harry work out a means to communicate with Alfred at range and could he (Alfred) "summon" Harry?  The problem with that plan would of course be getting back off of Demonreach without someone to summon you back...

I think it might be possible to adapt the method Marcone used to teleport.  We saw him prepare some spots on the fly and then teleport between them.  It is possible that with a bunch more preparation you could make spots at a greater distance to teleport between.  But I don't like that idea because it does open a huge security gap in Demonreach's defenses.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Death Foreshadowing
« on: December 01, 2021, 07:30:39 PM »
Yes, but seeing the world as a spirit didn't alter time, love, or truth. You'd think time would have been altered, but it wasn't really, there was a beginning and an end to his "time" as a spirit. And since he really wasn't dead,dead, that experience was an illusion, don't think that was what Lasciel was getting at.

I think the time travel book will involve going through the spirit realm.  Like, Harry will astrally project back to the past and have to make him self a physical body like when he was a ghost.  We've also seen Lash and Bob slow down and adjust the flow of time.  Mr. Sunshine showed him many things after he almost died at the end of ghost story, and there he may have been truly outside of time.  It is quite possible that in a spirit sense time is an illusion.  Love is considered an illusion by the Fallen, that is them bringing their own bias to the statement.  God would strongly disagree, I suspect.  This might be the fundamental disagreement between them...

I've been thinking about Harry making himself a body from the spirit realm, about necromancy, and about the apparent WoJ that the einjhar are necromancy using soulfire.  Harry made himself an ectoplasmic body when he was "dead."  That sure seems like necromancy, but as I recall he had a heartbeat, etc.  He wasn't a zombie or a ghost at that point.  There was none of the talk of using "dark energy" or anything like that at the time that would have been associated with necromancy.   I assume just like any other spell, his body would have fallen apart at dawn, but would it have fallen if he had used soulfire in the mix?  If he was running around in just his soul and his spells were using his essence, was everything he cast pretty much using soulfire? 

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DF Spoilers / Re: Death Foreshadowing
« on: December 01, 2021, 07:19:35 PM »
I wouldn't say the denarians will be in the coins for eternity.  After all, they spent a lot of eternity out of them.  They only went in recently.  The whole coin thing may be a blip for them.  WoJ does imply the coin being destroyed would release the fallen, which would be bad.  It sounds almost impossible to do.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: December 01, 2021, 06:45:09 PM »
Harry had 4 options as I see it:
1.  Say nothing.  This is what he chose
2.  Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? I can't explain anything about why
3.  Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? I need to do it for Winter Knight reasons.
4.  Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? He's my brother.

Considering they were worried about him being bent up and not being himself, 2 wouldn't have worked.  They don't understand Winter the way Harry does, 3 would have made them trust him even less.  4 is just waaaay too dangerous to share.  Harry made the right choice.

Harry should take him to the outer gates and explain to him what's really in play and Winter's role in it.  That might make Carlos less worried about Harry being mind bent.  There is a really serious reason for Winter to be playing hardball that all reality should be supporting.  As a matter of fact, Harry should take Butters, Fix, and maybe even Goodman or anyone else he plans to need to depend on that he can get on that little "field Trip"  I think that would make a great short story in 12 months or whatever the new book is going to be.  There are some people Harry really needs trusting him just a little more than they are right now and cluing them into the big picture would help with that.

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DF Spoilers / Re: White Council Top Members
« on: September 22, 2021, 05:39:59 PM »
Rough thought.  Back when Harry said he was in the top 40 for strength, but as we've seen, strength counts for only so much Luccio said she was weaker than Harry back in her old body, but she was head of the Warders and I feel very certain could have taken Harry.  So, lets give it a x3 multiplier for skill and say Harry used to be top 120 wizards in a fight.

Since then we've seen Harry significantly increase in skill and add power through deals (winter knight, soulfire).  We know from WoJ that most older, and certainly all the senior council have a tendency to do the same (gain secret sources of power), so that might skew Harry's estimate because in his youth he probably wasn't accounting for all the deals these guys had going for them outside of natural strength.

Lets say the pool was actually 50% bigger because Harry didn't account for deals, but Harry has increased his strength to top 30 and skill modifier is now only x2.  30x1.5x2= top 90. Now say at least 10 of these died in the war and you put Harry in the top 30-45 most powerful still, and in the top 80 most dangerous.  It might be less than that if you are talking about in a straight up fight though, since Harry specializes in brawling.  Within that, obviously, it depends the kind of fight (if it is close enough to get physical I think Harry goes into top 20), terrain, ability to plan, etc.  But if Harry had gone into the meeting with the Vampire in Edinburgh, I bet there were at least 30 people present who could have shut him down.


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DF Spoilers / Re: What will Eb do?
« on: September 22, 2021, 05:11:15 PM »
It's my understanding from WoJ's that Harry is summoned to the MM universe by alternate Harry.  Alternate Harry apparently has a tendency of getting into situation where it is helpful if people believe he is dead, and summons our Harry to take the fall for him so he can disappear and be safely "dead" for awhile.  I suspect MM Harry will be in league with Denarians because Jim has also said that Harry selling his names to the librarian demon in earlier books would definitely come back to haunt him, and this seems like a good way to do that.  If our Chandler is going to be there (which I think is highly unlikely unless there is a WoJ indicating it) then probability would indicate he would have to have something to do with our Harry's arrival, like have given MM Harry information about him or at least part of his name to summon him.  That would explain why out of all the infinite multiverses they managed to wind up in the same one (other than divine manipulation).

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DF Spoilers / Re: Wonder what Eb meant by this
« on: September 21, 2021, 03:48:20 PM »
I think Eb thought he had a lock down on his rage enough that he wouldn't trigger to the point that he would risk killing Harry, but he did and totally lost it.

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DF Spoilers / Re: What will Eb do?
« on: September 21, 2021, 03:46:43 PM »
About a range of topics:

I would love to see an ancient Sumerian around.  That would give us a chance to learn more about ghouls.  I have long felt that every civilization developed protective supernatural beings - ghouls in Sumer, half-red vampires in the Aztecs, white court in Etruscans, etc.  These beings were often created by well meaning wizards, like the half-reds binding a hunter spirit to a human to give him extra powers.  In the case of the reds it was poorly done because if they ever gave in to the temptation they became a threat.  But with the ghouls in Sumer they were essentially their civilization's supernatural warriors to counter other civilizations supernatural warriors, and they self-limited their population to what could be sustained by eating the natural dead... until they didn't.  I had a character concept in the RPG of a ghoul that had psychometry, which is what the religious leader class of the ghouls had until they were destroyed.  When they eat something, they learn from it.  "You are what you eat" applies to ghouls too.  If they eat too much cow, they become docile.  To stay intelligent, they need to eat intelligent people.  And if one with psychometry eats enough wizards... boom Sumerian priest-wizard ghoul.

The blackstaff (the person holding the position, not the item) chooses who gets the blackstaff (the position and item) next.  I assume it is worked out to happen automatically at his death.  I think it is very likely Harry will get the staff.  Anyone who thinks that mother winter doesn't know where her staff is, is kidding themselves.  She's let them have it for some reason, maybe even so it can come down to Harry at the critical point.

I think Harry's time travel will be incorporeal.  He will go back as a spirit, since he did make some comment about how hard it would be to move mass through time at one point.  The question is whether he needs to have the blackstaff at the time to protect him from black magic ramifications?  I think he will generally stay within the actions we've seen happen in the books and fill some holes we've seen.  Who repaired little Chicago - TT Harry.  Who helped defent Arctis Tor - TT Harry.  Mab was willing to wait for Harry, because she literally knew from Harry that she would succeed in getting Harry.  There are little inconsistencies we've seen through the book like where Lindquist lives that I think will supposedly be explained by mess ups Harry makes in the TT.  We'll have to see how that works out.

I think the Mirror Mirror book will revolve more around Harry saving/redeeming the MM Harry, rather than killing him.  The book series is getting much more seriously into redemption arcs.  I doubt MM Harry will live through the redemption though...

I've always thought Eb could have used the blackstaff to blackmagic control a high ranking military office and track Papa Wraith by satellite and then just have dropped a missile on him, but I suspect either Eb didn't think of it, or that he wasn't willing to use that much black magic on a personal vendetta.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Demonreach, Ley lines, and Harry's connection
« on: September 13, 2021, 06:51:39 PM »
The problem with determining power, who can take who, etc. is complicated by two factors.
1.  Harry has been lied to systematically about how magic works
2.  Situations matter

For part 1 I will say this: we have seen Harry work on formula and calculations of how much power a spell would take and design and blah blah blah.  We know he was taught this by Eb and that Eb even published a book about it.  But we've also heard almost every book about how magic is about belief and emotions and will.  We've seen Harry modify his spells on the fly numerous times - his force shield has been vertical and brittle, it has been horizontal and they've walked on it, its been slanted, its been wrapped in a bubble around him and flexible to absorb shock.  Do you really think he engineered all these or did calculations in his head every time?  No.  Harry has been lied to about magic and it being calculatable that way.  And we know this is typical white council procedure - you are wise enough to manage the power when you are wise enough to figure it out yourself.  They lie to their baby wizards for two reasons - to give them something they can understand and calculate to give them the confidence that they can do some things in a very rigid fashion, and to limit the speed of their power growth until they are wise enough to handle the power.  Right now Harry is learning to trust himself more in all kinds of way, which makes him more powerful as he feels he can/should do more, including veils, etc.

For part 2 - situations matter covers a lot of things.  Are you coming at someone in their lane where all their authority and power applies, or are you coming at them sideways?  Harry is a really straightforward thinker and would easily be taken by something subtle.  It doesn't take a lot of power to counter Harry, it takes knowledge and subtlety. 

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DF Spoilers / Re: California Crew
« on: September 09, 2021, 10:11:39 PM »
True, but if ever a place was in need of a good feng shui team it would be Chicago during the rebuild.  Considering what happened there, Chicago could either become a real epicenter of supernatural activity in the world or totally anathema to it since the mortals there are so sensitized to it now.

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DF Spoilers / Re: I can see why some of the gods would be in pro wrestling
« on: September 09, 2021, 10:09:37 PM »
I am of the opinion that several members of the Greek pantheon threw in some pieces (or all) of themselves to help form the faerie courts (specifically on the Stone Table).  Hecate and the Fates for sure, but also ones like Persephone and Demeter.  To push this idea further, a Greek god such as Pan makes for a good Eldest Gruff analog, and things like that.  (Also fun fact, Hecate is associated with dogs, a good analog for the summer/winter knight)

Athena is a tricky one because Mab fits the bill for her best, but she's definitely not got the virginal aspect (that's the Ladies).  The fact that the Archive exists makes me second guess on her as well.

I think the comparison of Zeus birthing Athena and Dresden birthing Bonea is too much for Jim to leave out as an item.  I anticipate that means we'll be meeting Athena, but I could be wrong.  It would be interesting to see what other facets she has.  We already know the courts are at least somehow affiliated with Hecate, but it would be interesting to see if there is another combo.  I also think we might start to get a look at how the mothers might tie in as well as fates/norns (since we already sort of know that), or possibly more. 

It's an interesting idea of what happens if a God is killed on the table.  I hadn't though about how that might be done, since that should be able to dismantle a mantle, so to speak.  I wonder if it "purifies" the energy source in any way?   Part of the problem with doing anything with the power in demonreach is that it is essentially innately evil.  I wonder if you could get a being out of Demonreach and onto the Table and sacrificed fast enough, if the table could cleanse it down to pure (untainted) power...

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DF Spoilers / Re: I can see why some of the gods would be in pro wrestling
« on: September 09, 2021, 05:46:56 PM »
I think, as we saw with Harry's discussion with Hades, that Butcher considers a lot of the Greek Pantheon... immature.  I mean look at all the stuff Zeus did.  He might have been powerful at one time, but he sure wasn't full of foresight like Odin.  We might be seeing what happens when a God doesn't play their cards as well as Odin.  On the other hand, they aren't asleep like a lot of the old gods, and seem to be able to be fully active in the physical world without "breaking it" like the dragons and the like need to worry about, so maybe they've accepted the downgrade in power for a reason - to still be able to effect the physical world.  But if they were doing that for much of a good reason you would think they would be signatories of the accords and present to help out in Chicago, so who knows.  Also, we know some members of the Pantheon (Hecate-Mab) wear different mantles, so we might be seeing some interesting plays there as well.  Finally, I want to see Athena.  She should have played her cards right, and she at least started as a divine level spirit of intellect.  Love to see how that worked out, and how Zues and Harry talk about the process....

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DF Spoilers / California Crew
« on: September 09, 2021, 04:39:02 PM »
As we've learned Harry's super power really is the empowering of people around him.  I was rereading Blood Rites and thought about the crew that eventually went out to California to practice Feng Shui - Jake, Bobby, Inari, and maybe Bobby's kids.  I can't shake that the adults would make a great Scooby doo gang, and I can't help but think of the kids kinda growing up like the brothers in Supernatural because of it.  Wonder if we could see them reappear as normal human  supernatural fighters in the future.  It would be a hoot to see.  Wondering if the time between them going off and them coming back is enough for the the kids to be involved yet.

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